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Why is "belief" important?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Well the problem every human has is of not having eternal life. The Bible gives the solution to that problem.
    How do you validate that solution?

    Or to continue the analogy, you find out one day you need eternal life. You are on the market for eternal life, just as in our example you needed to get holes made in a wall. You then find out, by enquiring of many others, that it can be acquired by following the instructions in the Bible. Bingo!
    It still requires validation.

    Using your analogy of a drill and an instruction manual, I would be drilling holes with a blindfold on. I can't see the holes to know whether or not the drill was being used correctly.
    "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
    "
    Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Ronson View Post

      How do you validate that solution?



      It still requires validation.

      Using your analogy of a drill and an instruction manual, I would be drilling holes with a blindfold on. I can't see the holes to know whether or not the drill was being used correctly.
      First, let's think about how people thought they needed 'eternal life', our metaphorical 'hole' equivalent.


      They observed that living creatures found pleasure in eating, right from birth. Also from physical activity. And then sleeping. So that's what they did. Eat, play, sleep. Rinse and repeat.


      They also grew bigger and stronger, from these activities. It was all good. Until it plateaued. And then, it all went pear shaped. Went south.


      This was universal, whether animal or human being, except for sentience, awareness of death. We define it that way because humans retain experiences, whether painful or pleasurable, and desire the continuation of the good events, and realise death ends that.


      That realisation in turn leads to the realisation that the normal life is pointless, it ends with nothing.


      This conclusion is common to all humans, whether modern, or those of the past. In fact, ancient people had less to distract them, and came to the realisation sooner. Whilst for moderns, it could be at death: 'This is it? This is all, what life is about?'


      We think it should be more, since we can see a general principle of effort having a result. And what makes it worse for people who introspect, value thoughtful action, some of the thoughtful action we desire to do, never mind resulting in result, can't even be done. As Paul says:


      Rom 7
      7What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”a 8But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.


      9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.


      12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.


      13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? Certainly not! But in order that sin might be exposed as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


      14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


      18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


      21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b


      24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!


      So, apart from the last sentence, this is the experience common to every human being. We have a noble mind, linked to a selfish body. We can't do everything we desire, and even the things we do don't benefit us.

      It begins with not being distracted by everyday exigencies, experiencing a slight unease, and finally with full realisation about the futility of our condition.


      Christ provides the solution.


      Eternal life is not immortality, even the wicked live forever, except they are lodged in the Smoking Section.


      Eternal life is life led with results that don't rust or perish, are eternal.


      And when we believe the Bible, we have moved from death into that life.

      In other words, if we follow Jesus like Peter did, and continued to do, we will posses eternal life, life with rewards that are permanent, and it happens in this life, right here, right now, with noticeable results.
      Last edited by footwasher; 01-21-2022, 06:15 PM.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by footwasher View Post

        First, let's think about how people thought they needed 'eternal life', our metaphorical 'hole' equivalent.


        They observed that living creatures found pleasure in eating, right from birth. Also from physical activity. And then sleeping. So that's what they did. Eat, play, sleep. Rinse and repeat.


        They also grew bigger and stronger, from these activities. It was all good. Until it plateaued. And then, it all went pear shaped. Went south.


        This was universal, whether animal or human being, except for sentience, awareness of death. We define it that way because humans retain experiences, whether painful or pleasurable, and desire the continuation of the good events, and realise death ends that.


        That realisation in turn leads to the realisation that the normal life is pointless, it ends with nothing.


        This conclusion is common to all humans, whether modern, or those of the past. In fact, ancient people had less to distract them, and came to the realisation sooner. Whilst for moderns, it could be at death: 'This is it? This is all, what life is about?'


        We think it should be more, since we can see a general principle of effort having a result. And what makes it worse for people who introspect, value thoughtful action, some of the thoughtful action we desire to do, never mind resulting in result, can't even be done. As Paul says:


        Rom 7
        7What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”a 8But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.


        9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.


        12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.


        13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? Certainly not! But in order that sin might be exposed as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


        14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do, I do not do. But what I hate, I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I admit that the law is good. 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


        18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


        21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law. 23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me.b


        24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord!


        So, apart from the last sentence, this is the experience common to every human being. We have a noble mind, linked to a selfish body. We can't do everything we desire, and even the things we do don't benefit us.

        It begins with not being distracted by everyday exigencies, experiencing a slight unease, and finally with full realisation about the futility of our condition.


        Christ provides the solution.


        Eternal life is not immortality, even the wicked live forever, except they are lodged in the Smoking Section.


        Eternal life is life led with results that don't rust or perish, are eternal.


        And when we believe the Bible, we have moved from death into that life.

        In other words, if we follow Jesus like Peter did, and continued to do, we will posses eternal life, life with rewards that are permanent, and it happens in this life, right here, right now, with noticeable results.
        Thank you for all of that, but it never answers my question of validation. I'm used to it, because there is no easy answer (or any answer). The usual response I get is a statement of faith.
        "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
        "
        Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Ronson View Post

          Thank you for all of that, but it never answers my question of validation. I'm used to it, because there is no easy answer (or any answer). The usual response I get is a statement of faith.
          But the availability of eternal life is validated, because it's manifestation can be seen! Jesus was a blessing to the world, as promised to Abraham. He was able to lead people to God, be a guiding light, in the process earning permanent gains, treasure in heaven, by manifesting God in His life, as evinced by being able to do supernatural acts, opening physical and spiritual eyes, healing physical maladies, explaining impossibly difficult intellectual issues in a lucid and cogent fashion:

          Jn 3
          1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

          3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a

          4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”

          5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

          9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

          10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do not understand these things? 11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.

          12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.c 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.d

          16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and onlye Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
          ...

          Jesus had impressed people by showing them the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham, and He was telling Nicodemus he could rightfully have it too, being a Jew, a child of Abraham. He had come to feed the children bread, evidence of the Promise.
          Last edited by footwasher; 01-21-2022, 07:52 PM.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by footwasher View Post

            But the availability of eternal life is validated, because it's manifestation can be seen!
            Please explain.
            "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
            "
            Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Ronson View Post

              Please explain.
              I mean the benefit of the Gospel, to be a blessing to the world, earning eternal rewards, rewards that don't rust and perish, AKA eternal life, is available in this life. You don't have to hope, have faith that you will receive your reward in the afterlife: believers pass into eternal life right here, right now.

              Nicodemus saw that Jesus was already in possession of the benefits of the Gospel, to be a blessing to the world, by manifesting God's presence in His life, motivating righteous minded people, God's sheep, to find their way back to Him. He expressed his interest and Jesus told him how he could move into his inheritance, because the former was a Jew, and eligible, being a blood descendant of Abraham.

              Sure, many of these terms are dense, and need to be unpacked to reveal more, but don't be afraid. It just requires patience to track the beginning of the thread, and trace its path through the ball of wool. Then when we unravel one strand, we can start on the next.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                I mean the benefit of the Gospel, to be a blessing to the world, earning eternal rewards, rewards that don't rust and perish, AKA eternal life, is available in this life. You don't have to hope, have faith that you will receive your reward in the afterlife: believers pass into eternal life right here, right now.

                Nicodemus saw that Jesus was already in possession of the benefits of the Gospel, to be a blessing to the world, by manifesting God's presence in His life, motivating righteous minded people, God's sheep, to find their way back to Him. He expressed his interest and Jesus told him how he could move into his inheritance, because the former was a Jew, and eligible, being a blood descendant of Abraham.

                Sure, many of these terms are dense, and need to be unpacked to reveal more, but don't be afraid. It just requires patience to track the beginning of the thread, and trace its path through the ball of wool. Then when we unravel one strand, we can start on the next.
                You must be using a different definition of the word "validation".

                For something to be validated, it has been proven valid by testing. You cannot validate any claims about eternal life by any book - especially when using the technical term for "life."

                What you mean is, the books says so, so you believe it.
                "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
                "
                Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                  You must be using a different definition of the word "validation".

                  For something to be validated, it has been proven valid by testing. You cannot validate any claims about eternal life by any book - especially when using the technical term for "life."

                  What you mean is, the books says so, so you believe it.
                  I already clarified that eternal life is not received in the afterlife. Those who follow Christ have already passed into eternal life:

                  Jn 5
                  24“Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                    I already clarified that eternal life is not received in the afterlife. Those who follow Christ have already passed into eternal life:

                    Jn 5
                    24“Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
                    You seem like a nice guy so I don't want belabor this any further. But in closing, you are speaking to me in Chistianese, and then quote the Bible when its validation is at issue. So this isn't going anywhere.

                    You'd need to speak the language of the world for them to understand you. Speaking Middle English to a hip-hop world isn't efficient communication.
                    Last edited by Ronson; 01-22-2022, 08:32 PM.
                    "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
                    "
                    Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                      You seem like a nice guy so I don't want belabor this any further. But in closing, you are speaking to me in Chistianese, and then quote the Bible when its validation is at issue. So this isn't going anywhere.

                      You'd need to speak the language of the world for them to understand you. Speaking Middle English to a hip-hop world isn't efficient communication.
                      All you have to do is clarify what seems like Christianese to you. I have taken the pains to clarify that eternal life isn't immortality, so it's not like I'm stating stuff without giving the background. And I've also stated that eternal life is the ability to solve physical and intellectual problems, sickness and ignorance, for example.

                      Logically, you have to rebut me on those claims. So go ahead.

                      Comment


                      • Ok I wish to have another go? Your question is, "Why is belief important to God"? I take this question to be with regards to the God of the Bible?

                        You are then going to get Biblical answers? Christianese answers.







                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Esther View Post
                          Ok I wish to have another go? Your question is, "Why is belief important to God"? I take this question to be with regards to the God of the Bible?
                          God, in general.

                          You are then going to get Biblical answers? Christianese answers.
                          When I say "Christianese" I'm talking about using flowery biblical terms that don't have much meaning outside the Christian world. That, and, quoting random passages that aren't particularly relevant to the discussion.
                          "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
                          "
                          Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                            All you have to do is clarify what seems like Christianese to you. I have taken the pains to clarify that eternal life isn't immortality, so it's not like I'm stating stuff without giving the background.
                            What does "passed into eternal life" mean? It's not "passed away" or death, although I'm sure you will be facing that one day (like all of us), so it has no meaning to me.

                            And I've also stated that eternal life is the ability to solve physical and intellectual problems, sickness and ignorance, for example.
                            Vague. Are you saying you can solve any problem now and you never get sick? How is this verified?


                            "You should just assume going forward that if I am ever wrong it is a typo" - Backup
                            "
                            Reality simply does not change based upon consensus or desire." - rogue

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                              What does "passed into eternal life" mean? It's not "passed away" or death, although I'm sure you will be facing that one day (like all of us), so it has no meaning to me.
                              I understand your situation, but I did continue and say that eternal life is living so that results are permanent, not temporary, as with other people who go to the grave 'naked', with nothing.

                              Vague. Are you saying you can solve any problem now and you never get sick? How is this verified?
                              Different believers living the eternal style of life do different 'works'. Churches are always upgrading their members from 'ungifted' to 'gifted', through the use of the gift of prophesy and interpretation, after new members see demonstrations of physical and intellectual problems being solved, and in turn want to posses eternal type of living.

                              Skeptical visitors or visitors with heretical revelation and interpretations also find that their world views get 'demolished' by the 'works' of the 'church universal', meaning the church consisting of believers in 'eternal life' mode.

                              Since you are not a visitor to a chapter inhabiting a brick and mortar site, our interaction will be limited to verifying through debate:

                              1 Cor 14
                              23So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who are uninstructed or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds? 24But if an unbeliever or uninstructed person comes in while everyone is prophesying, he will be convicted and called to account by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be made known. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!”

                              Eternal life was prefigured in the OT, where people like Rahab, Naaman, the Queen of the South were drawn to God convinced that He was 'with' Israel. It is recorded as the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham, that he and his descendants would be a blessing to the world, a light guiding the endarkened people of the world back to God, when Nicodemus observed that God was with Jesus.
                              Last edited by footwasher; 01-23-2022, 04:37 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                                God, in general.
                                The God of the Bible is a very specific God. Bible believing Christians do not believe in a God/s in general. Perhaps this is where discussion ends for you?


                                When I say "Christianese" I'm talking about using flowery biblical terms that don't have much meaning outside the Christian world. That, and, quoting random passages that aren't particularly relevant to the discussion.
                                Yes it is a challenge to avoid Christianese. There are intelligent posters on this board who may be able to discuss this issue with you further I hope.

                                Comment

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