Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Decisional Regeneration?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Romans 10
    9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
    10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
    This is works salvation. If God already saved you, this will be a normal part of your daily speech.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Dave L View Post

      This is works salvation. If God already saved you, this will be a normal part of your daily speech.
      "Works" salvation deals with adherence to the Torah laws, not confessing Christ.

      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Dave L View Post

        This is works salvation. If God already saved you, this will be a normal part of your daily speech.
        It would have been fun to have you around correcting Paul when he taught about professing Christ.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Dave L View Post
          ...
          The problem happens when the preacher leads them to believe in "Decisional Regeneration" as the savior. This is much like the Catholic’s "baptismal regeneration". It's the same principle. So the damage amounts to shifting them away from faith in Christ and salvation which they already had before going forward. Into saving themselves by going forward and deciding to believe, which they already did or they would not have gone forward. So while many were no doubt saved when they believed enough to "go forward", the false “decision-based” gospel directed their faith back into themselves as the savior. Thinking they met the conditions of a gospel Billy turned into law and grace into works. They are still saved, but horribly confused.
          I'm trying really hard to find something on which I can agree with Dave.
          This topic has promise.

          I looked up "Decisional Regeneration", and one of the first "hits" was from GotQuestions.

          Here's how they start off on this topic....

          Decisional regeneration, sometimes referred to as decision theology, is the belief that a person must make a decision for Christ, consciously accepting Him as Savior, in order to be saved. According to decision theology, the new birth occurs when someone 1) hears the gospel, 2) is convicted of the truth of the gospel, 3) understands the need for salvation, and 4) chooses to accept Christ rather than reject Him. Often, the decision to accept Christ is marked by an action such as walking an aisle, praying a "sinner’s prayer," signing a decision card, or similar activity.


          First of all, as Dave often does, he kinda overshoots the runway by implying (or stating) that this is a common practice among evangelicals.

          HOWEVER, I used to be rather black-and-white on the issue of "saved or not", that it was a very binary position, like being pregnant - you either are or you are not.

          THEN I heard Paul Little at a conference explaining that's how he used to think, but in soulwinning, he began to use a different approach.

          Instead of it being a binary "are you saved or not" type inquiry, it became more of "have you trusted Christ as your Savior, or are you still on the way..."

          I actually liked that a lot, because it didn't seem so confrontational, and gave people an opportunity to say, "yeah, I'm on the path, but...."

          And you can help them figure out where they are on their spiritual journey, or if they're willing to start one...
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #95
            There has to be at least some small measure of the human mind or heart that has free will enough so to accept Jesus. Otherwise, what is doing the act of accepting? Is God also pulling the strings in that regard as well?

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Machinist View Post
              There has to be at least some small measure of the human mind or heart that has free will enough so to accept Jesus.
              Absolutely.

              Otherwise, what is doing the act of accepting? Is God also pulling the strings in that regard as well?
              The Holy Spirit keeps getting left out of this... He is a significant factor in drawing the person to Christ, but the individual makes the ultimate and eternal decision.

              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #97


                If someone can direct their free will to choose something good over evil (choose Jesus over the World), then that aspect of the person is either neutral or good and wasn't corrupted by the fall of man in the garden. Dave's view assumes Total Depravity of Man.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                  There has to be at least some small measure of the human mind or heart that has free will enough so to accept Jesus. Otherwise, what is doing the act of accepting? Is God also pulling the strings in that regard as well?
                  According to Calvinism, absolutely God is the puppet master.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Wait a minute...would you be choosing something good over evil, or just choosing life over death? Life is good of course, better than death.

                    I'm just ruminating on that faculty/property of the human mind and/or heart that does the choosing. Would you say that it was corrupted by the fall?

                    Let;s say it was...then you'd just be choosing to live rather than die. Even if that part was corrupted as well, it would still choose to life. Agree or disagree?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                      I'm trying really hard to find something on which I can agree with Dave.
                      This topic has promise.

                      I looked up "Decisional Regeneration", and one of the first "hits" was from GotQuestions.

                      Here's how they start off on this topic....

                      Decisional regeneration, sometimes referred to as decision theology, is the belief that a person must make a decision for Christ, consciously accepting Him as Savior, in order to be saved. According to decision theology, the new birth occurs when someone 1) hears the gospel, 2) is convicted of the truth of the gospel, 3) understands the need for salvation, and 4) chooses to accept Christ rather than reject Him. Often, the decision to accept Christ is marked by an action such as walking an aisle, praying a "sinner’s prayer," signing a decision card, or similar activity.


                      First of all, as Dave often does, he kinda overshoots the runway by implying (or stating) that this is a common practice among evangelicals.

                      HOWEVER, I used to be rather black-and-white on the issue of "saved or not", that it was a very binary position, like being pregnant - you either are or you are not.

                      THEN I heard Paul Little at a conference explaining that's how he used to think, but in soulwinning, he began to use a different approach.

                      Instead of it being a binary "are you saved or not" type inquiry, it became more of "have you trusted Christ as your Savior, or are you still on the way..."

                      I actually liked that a lot, because it didn't seem so confrontational, and gave people an opportunity to say, "yeah, I'm on the path, but...."

                      And you can help them figure out where they are on their spiritual journey, or if they're willing to start one...
                      In my experience, evangelicals very much tend to use several terms pretty much interchangeably: "converted," "decision," "saved," "born again."

                      This can lead to several problems, not the least of which is that some believe they were "born again" when they were infant-baptized, even if they have zero present-day relationship with Jesus, and no concept of trust/commitment toward Him.

                      That's a bit different from your angle, but I think it's another good reason to use the "trust in Jesus" language rather than "saved," "born again," etc.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Let's go, Brandon

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Machinist View Post

                        If someone can direct their free will to choose something good over evil (choose Jesus over the World), then that aspect of the person is either neutral or good and wasn't corrupted by the fall of man in the garden. Dave's view assumes Total Depravity of Man.
                        Even Arminians believe in Total Depravity. Not everyone uses the same definition of it.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Let's go, Brandon

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                          Wait a minute...would you be choosing something good over evil, or just choosing life over death? Life is good of course, better than death.

                          I'm just ruminating on that faculty/property of the human mind and/or heart that does the choosing. Would you say that it was corrupted by the fall?

                          Let;s say it was...then you'd just be choosing to live rather than die. Even if that part was corrupted as well, it would still choose to life. Agree or disagree?
                          Given that Jesus acknowledged even evil people could on occasion do good, it seems that this "total depravity" story might need some tweaking.
                          1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            Given that Jesus acknowledged even evil people could on occasion do good, it seems that this "total depravity" story might need some tweaking.
                            That makes the most sense. There has to be something inherently good still left in man after the all.

                            Man, it would really be a bad thing if God just didn't like you.

                            Comment


                            • Don't think total depravity means 100% evil. Just that we all fall short of moral perfection. The word depravity may not have aged well.
                              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                                "Works" salvation deals with adherence to the Torah laws, not confessing Christ.
                                You turn the gospel into law, and grace into works when you preach free will. If you do this, God will do this = works. And it cannot save.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Dave L, 01-14-2022, 06:35 AM
                                53 responses
                                276 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by Dave L, 01-12-2022, 12:37 PM
                                41 responses
                                225 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Ronson, 01-11-2022, 03:23 PM
                                76 responses
                                403 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Esther
                                by Esther
                                 
                                Started by Dave L, 01-11-2022, 05:58 AM
                                116 responses
                                432 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cow Poke  
                                Started by Dave L, 01-10-2022, 12:25 PM
                                48 responses
                                226 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post KingsGambit  
                                Working...
                                X