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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

    I'm not an annihilationist. I believe we all will live forever in one place or another. Eternal life with the Son or eternal life in the lake of fire. I wish I had the time to get into it more deeply, but I'm being pulled in multiple directions at work.
    Come on Bill, you know that in the bible when they refer to Eternal life they are speaking of Eternal Life with God, not in the lake of fire. It means being saved, not damned. Eternal life means your name is written in the book of life and you will never see hell.

    Comment

    • #32
      [QUOTE=Sparko;n1341131]

      Here is my problem with it.

      Jesus said when you are saved you HAVE eternal life right?
      Not that I know of. Present tense in Koine Greek doubles for present imperfect - interpretation of "hear," "know," "follow," "give" might also be "are ~ing": it is simply a matter of what seems to fit in the interpreters' opinions. If those opinions are conditioned by less ambiguous passages, all is well and good. (Englsh also uses present tense for other tenses - and refers only to matters as they stand.)

      John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish."
      Less ambiguous passages are essential for clarification.

      John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
      Will is not a decision, but a desire. (It is God's will that none shall die - it doesn't seem that everyone avoids death). "believes" is a present active participle - technically "{the ones} believing" - no sense of completion, which would be aorist active participle, but of ongoing action or state which won't necessarily endure (aorist: it does endure).

      1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
      "write" is properly "wrote" (formally correct) or "have written" (colloquially acceptable). More ambiguous verbs: "believe" or "are believing," "have/hold" or "are holding." Again, more explicit passages are needed to gain clarification.

      So that means if you are saved you will live forever with God, right?
      But if you can fall away, then how could that be true or even known? If you today truly believe in Jesus and ask him to save you, then you are saved and have eternal life. But if next week, you might change your mind and leave the faith, then you don't have eternal life any more right? But that means you don't have eternal life right now either and never did (since you will fall away next week). So your entire salvation was a lie. You only THINK you are saved right now, but you aren't. Jesus knows you will turn away from him next week. And if you don't have eternal life after next week, you surely don't have it now.
      Explicitly stated - some will believe for a time but then fall away in times of trial. Nothing in that indicates a false belief.
      [Personal Assessment} However, indications are that the state of being saved as sealed is possible to achieve. Initially and for quite some time, it is not a done deal - which is where perseverance in the face of trials comes in. {/]
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment

      • #33
        [QUOTE=tabibito;n1341197]
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

        Here is my problem with it.



        Not that I know of. Present tense in Koine Greek doubles for present imperfect - interpretation of "hear," "know," "follow," "give" might also be "are ~ing": it is simply a matter of what seems to fit in the interpreters' opinions. If those opinions are conditioned by less ambiguous passages, all is well and good. (Englsh also uses present tense for other tenses - and refers only to matters as they stand.)



        Less ambiguous passages are essential for clarification.



        Will is not a decision, but a desire. (It is God's will that none shall die - it doesn't seem that everyone avoids death). "believes" is a present active participle - technically "{the ones} believing" - no sense of completion, which would be aorist active participle, but of ongoing action or state which won't necessarily endure (aorist: it does endure).



        "write" is properly "wrote" (formally correct) or "have written" (colloquially acceptable). More ambiguous verbs: "believe" or "are believing," "have/hold" or "are holding." Again, more explicit passages are needed to gain clarification.



        Explicitly stated - some will believe for a time but then fall away in times of trial. Nothing in that indicates a false belief.
        [Personal Assessment} However, indications are that the state of being saved as sealed is possible to achieve. Initially and for quite some time, it is not a done deal - which is where perseverance in the face of trials comes in. {/]
        You didn't show I was wrong. Maybe someone might believe they are saved but if God knows that they will one day change their mind (take Starlight for example, at one time he truly believed he was saved but now he is an atheist) then that means even when they thought they had eternal life and were saved they were not. God knew that they would fall away. You can't HAVE eternal life if it will be taken away one day. You merely think you have it. Using Starlight again, he just thought he was saved, but God knew he was not because God knew he would "fall away". OR, he was truly saved when he confessed and put his faith in Jesus as his savior and he is still saved now even though he has "fallen away" and will be one of those who works are burned up but he himself will be saved.

        I believe the latter. That someone who truly believes is saved and that means for all time, even if they one day fall away. They will just miss out on rewards and crowns because they wasted their life after they fell away. That doesn't mean that there are not those who do merely think they are saved and never were, like say the Mormons who put their faith in a false Jesus and false Gospel.


        Comment

        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post

          Come on Bill, you know that in the bible when they refer to Eternal life they are speaking of Eternal Life with God, not in the lake of fire. It means being saved, not damned. Eternal life means your name is written in the book of life and you will never see hell.
          Mostly correct. Since Jesus is the Life, when we possess eternal life, we possess Him when we come to salvation. It isn't something we suddenly obtain in and of ourselves. We are not immortally independent of Him. We are "in Him" and therefore partakers of the world to come. While we have Him, we have eternal life. But if we give up and truly fall away, and have our name blotted out of the Book of Life, we lose that life in Him, and thus we lose our partaking of eternal life. Eternal life still exists, but just without us.
          Last edited by Bill the Cat; 01-11-2022, 01:00 PM.
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          - Stephen R. Donaldson
          • 1 like

          Comment

          • #35
            [QUOTE=Sparko;n1341211]
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            You didn't show I was wrong. Maybe someone might believe they are saved but if God knows that they will one day change their mind (take Starlight for example, at one time he truly believed he was saved but now he is an atheist) then that means even when they thought they had eternal life and were saved they were not. God knew that they would fall away. You can't HAVE eternal life if it will be taken away one day. You merely think you have it. Using Starlight again, he just thought he was saved, but God knew he was not because God knew he would "fall away". OR, he was truly saved when he confessed and put his faith in Jesus as his savior and he is still saved now even though he has "fallen away" and will be one of those who works are burned up but he himself will be saved.

            I believe the latter. That someone who truly believes is saved and that means for all time, even if they one day fall away. They will just miss out on rewards and crowns because they wasted their life after they fell away. That doesn't mean that there are not those who do merely think they are saved and never were, like say the Mormons who put their faith in a false Jesus and false Gospel.
            I addressed the verses you presented, noting that they are not solid enough for a definitive answer. That is the best that can be done on the basis of those verses - they don't prove anyone's case.

            So unambiguous verses ... Matthew 13:20-21 is the only one that I can think of offhand. Maybe look into it further after I've had some sleep.

            ETA: You would find an unambiguous verse in Jesus' declaration; "none can snatch him from my hand." There is quite a bit of reconciliation to be done, assuming that there is no genuine contradiction.
            Last edited by tabibito; 01-11-2022, 01:09 PM.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment

            • #36
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

              Come on Bill, you know that in the bible when they refer to Eternal life they are speaking of Eternal Life with God, not in the lake of fire. It means being saved, not damned. Eternal life means your name is written in the book of life and you will never see hell.
              If the Bible says that Jesus gives us Eternal Life AND it also says that apostasy is a real and present possibility, then both of those MUST be true. (Unless you think some parts of the New Testament overrule other parts )So, the conclusion is simple Jesus gives Eternal life to those who continue to have faith/trust in his work on the cross for Eternal life. If you walk away from that trust for long enough, then you are in danger of losing Eternal Life.
              "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

              "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

              Comment

              • #37
                Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                If the Bible says that Jesus gives us Eternal Life AND it also says that apostasy is a real and present possibility, then both of those MUST be true. (Unless you think some parts of the New Testament overrule other parts )So, the conclusion is simple Jesus gives Eternal life to those who continue to have faith/trust in his work on the cross for Eternal life. If you walk away from that trust for long enough, then you are in danger of losing Eternal Life.
                But as I said, if you can lose it then you never actually had it to begin with. Eternal life means "forever". Saying you have eternal life now when God knows you will not have it next week is meaningless. If your ultimate destination will be hell [and God knows what your ultimate destination will be now even if you don't] then someone who will one day "apostatize" doesn't actually have eternal life now, they merely think they do. Or put another way they might think they are going to heaven but God knows they are really going to hell because next week they will turn away and apostatize, so even now their destination is really hell not heaven, so they are not "saved" now. Right?

                Or they really ARE saved now as Jesus says. They have eternal life and no one can snatch them from the Father's hand, not even themselves. They might "apostatize" and turn away but then they are just wandering sheep and are still saved even though they think they turned away.

                It has to be one or the other.

                Comment

                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                  But as I said, if you can lose it then you never actually had it to begin with. Eternal life means "forever". Saying you have eternal life now when God knows you will not have it next week is meaningless. If your ultimate destination will be hell [and God knows what your ultimate destination will be now even if you don't] then someone who will one day "apostatize" doesn't actually have eternal life now, they merely think they do. Or put another way they might think they are going to heaven but God knows they are really going to hell because next week they will turn away and apostatize, so even now their destination is really hell not heaven, so they are not "saved" now. Right?

                  Or they really ARE saved now as Jesus says. They have eternal life and no one can snatch them from the Father's hand, not even themselves. They might "apostatize" and turn away but then they are just wandering sheep and are still saved even though they think they turned away.

                  It has to be one or the other.
                  Well, part of your dilema is exactly why I'm an Open Theist, but that's really neither here nor there. I think if you turn the argument around, the same warnings about apostasy become meaningless as well...do then not? So, what we have to do is (as I already said) examine how these 2 statements, both spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ can both be true.

                  I simply do not believe that the Biblical statement "God has given us eternal life" means the same thing as "eternal life has already begun for us". As an example, suppose I told you that for my Birthday, I was given an all expenses paid vacation in some place exotic like, the Virgin Islands or some such. That does not mean that my vacation started on my birthday. (Although I guess it could mean that as well) Most people though, would assume that I meant that on my birthday, I was promised a vacation to the Virgin Islands. Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that "Eternal Life" begins when Christ returns in his Glory. I think the clear connotation is that we are HEIRS to Eternal Life, but we have not yet fully inherited it. It's a promise to those who "endure to the end" as Paul says: 2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; because:
                  2 Timothy 4:3-4
                  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
                  "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                  "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                  Comment

                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post

                    Well, part of your dilema is exactly why I'm an Open Theist, but that's really neither here nor there. I think if you turn the argument around, the same warnings about apostasy become meaningless as well...do then not? So, what we have to do is (as I already said) examine how these 2 statements, both spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ can both be true.

                    I simply do not believe that the Biblical statement "God has given us eternal life" means the same thing as "eternal life has already begun for us". As an example, suppose I told you that for my Birthday, I was given an all expenses paid vacation in some place exotic like, the Virgin Islands or some such. That does not mean that my vacation started on my birthday. (Although I guess it could mean that as well) Most people though, would assume that I meant that on my birthday, I was promised a vacation to the Virgin Islands. Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that "Eternal Life" begins when Christ returns in his Glory. I think the clear connotation is that we are HEIRS to Eternal Life, but we have not yet fully inherited it. It's a promise to those who "endure to the end" as Paul says: 2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; because:
                    2 Timothy 4:3-4
                    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
                    There is a difference in promising a future vacation and eternal life. Eternal life means you will never die (not talking about physical death but spiritual). If you have that promise then you can't somehow walk away from it because if you do then the promise is meaningless. If Jesus told me that I have or will have eternal life and he KNOWS I will turn away next week, then he would be lying to me now because he knows I will not remain in the faith.

                    John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish."

                    Either that statement is true "they shall never perish" or it isn't. If I give my life to Jesus now and accept him as my savior he says I have eternal life and shall never perish. How can I then turn away and become an atheist without making him a liar? The only way I can reconcile it is that even if I think I have walked away from him, I still belong to him if I genuinely gave him my life. I might think I am an atheist, but I will still be saved in the end because I still belong to Jesus. I just probably won't hear "well done, good and faithful servant"

                    Comment

                    • #40
                      Lookie here!!! Dave L got us discussing THEOLOGY!!!
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment

                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Lookie here!!! Dave L got us discussing THEOLOGY!!!
                        Yup. He may be a nutter but at least we are discussing something other than politics. Thanks Dave.

                        • 1 like

                        Comment

                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                          Yup. He may be a nutter but at least we are discussing something other than politics. Thanks Dave.
                          (But who else do we know with a first name and a L following that? )

                          (hint - not the sharpest bulb in the shed)
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment

                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            (But who else do we know with a first name and a L following that? )

                            (hint - not the sharpest bulb in the shed)
                            Jim? Oh NOES!!!

                            Comment

                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                              Jim? Oh NOES!!!
                              I'm going to try to assume that Dave is just a bit misguided, but well meaning, and he only goes from board to board picking fights because.....

                              hmmm.... that sounded a lot better in my head.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment

                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                                I'm going to try to assume that Dave is just a bit misguided, but well meaning, and he only goes from board to board picking fights because.....

                                hmmm.... that sounded a lot better in my head.
                                He walks alone

                                Comment

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