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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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What Faith is

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  • What Faith is

    “Now faith is the substance [hypostasis] of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)
    Notice that the word substance is the same word used for person in Hebrews 1:3.

    [Jesus] “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person [hypostasis], and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” (Hebrews 1:3)

    So faith relates to things not seen in the same way Jesus relates to God who is not seen. He is the express image of God. And so faith is the express image of the needs we pray for.

    Faith is not what many assume it to be. It is not of human origin. It is a supernatural gift that God produces in us as evidence for what it represents. In essence, you know God saved you if He gave you faith in the matter. It is evidence of things not seen. Human faith cannot provide this assurance because it is not biblical faith. Human faith might gamble that Honest Charlie is cutting you a deal at the car lot. But it cannot save.

    58.1 ὑπόστασιςa, εως f: the essential or basic nature of an entity—‘substance, nature, essence, real being.’ ὃς ὢν … χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ ‘who is … the exact representation of his real being’ or ‘… nature’ He 1:3. In some languages there is no ready lexical equivalent of ‘real being’ or ‘nature.’ Therefore, one may express this concept in He 1:3 as ‘who is … just like what he really is.’
    Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 584). New York: United Bible Societies.

  • #2
    Biblical faith is synonymous with "trust" - Trusting God, his nature and his promises. And it is based in evidence, not a "blind" faith.

    It's that simple.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      Biblical faith is synonymous with "trust" - Trusting God, his nature and his promises. And it is based in evidence, not a "blind" faith.

      It's that simple.
      So that even a child can understand it.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        Biblical faith is synonymous with "trust" - Trusting God, his nature and his promises. And it is based in evidence, not a "blind" faith.

        It's that simple.
        Satan worshipers do the same. This is not biblical faith.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Dave L View Post

          Satan worshipers do the same. This is not biblical faith.
          Satan worshipers trust God?

          Comment


          • #6
            Source: https://www.christianity.com/jesus/following-jesus/repentance-faith-and-salvation/what-does-faith-mean.html

            What is Faith?


            Faith is one of those words that is commonly used but not always understood. Some of that confusion comes from the many different ways the word faith is used in everyday conversation; a quick look at Dictionary.com shows seven different uses! One common way that people use the word faith is to refer to belief in something despite lacking any evidence for it. But is that what the Bible means by faith? The answer is a resounding no! So, when the Bible uses the word faith, what does it mean?

            The closest that the Bible comes to offering an exact definition is Hebrews 11:1: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” From this particular passage, we see that the central feature of faith—confidence or trust. In the Bible, the object of faith is God and his promises. A clear example of this is Abram's encounter with God in Genesis 15. In response to God's promise of countless descendants, Abram “believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness” (Gen 15:6). Commenting on this, the Apostle Paul writes, “No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised” (Romans 4:20-21). Thus, faith means putting your trust in God and having confidence that he will fulfill his promises.

            © Copyright Original Source



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            • #7
              Originally posted by Dave L View Post

              Satan worshipers do the same. This is not biblical faith.

              Comment


              • #8
                Even accepting the concept of faith as confidence or trust (in Biblical terms, it only sometimes so), the question remains whether one person can have faith in another without believing what the other says.

                Joe: "I believe in her."
                Fred: "What? You don't believe anything she says."
                Joe: "I believe some of what she says."

                Does Joe believe in her?

                Note: "The righteous shall live by faith" does not mean "the righteous shall live by trust," but by "fidelity."
                Last edited by tabibito; 01-10-2022, 10:24 PM.
                1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                Comment


                • #9
                  Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. We are not. Our faith is the same as Satan worshippers, Muslims, Cults, tares, have etc. Biblical faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit we must have before we can have biblical faith. If you must choose to believe, it is because you don't believe.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Biblical faith is synonymous with "trust" - Trusting God, his nature and his promises. And it is based in evidence, not a "blind" faith.

                    It's that simple.
                    Yup. Or as I have posted multiple times a longer explanation:


                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post





                    You are confusing having faith for what is known as "blind faith" or blind acceptance. They are not synonyms.

                    An actual definition for the type of faith we talk about can be found in an older edition of Noah Webster's Dictionary

                    FAITH: 3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. Simple belief of the scriptures, of the being and perfections of God, and of the existence, character and doctrines of Christ, founded on the testimony of the sacred writers, is called historical or speculative faith; a faith little distinguished from the belief of the existence and achievements of Alexander or of Caesar.





                    The "blind faith" concept that atheists always assume that we mean is actually not biblical. Pistis, the Greek word translated as "faith," actually is defined as a conviction based on the facts. "Without faith, it is impossible to please God” (Heb 11:6) We couldn't please God unless our minds can accurately discern the facts.

                    Our faith is based upon the evidence provided. Paul praised the people of Berea in northern Greece because they "received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so" (Acts 17:11). For looking at the evidence and seeing for themselves that it was true -- not accepting it blindly.

                    Paul even explicitly told us that we should check to see if something is true or not which is the exact opposite of blind faith.

                    Scripture Verse: 1 Thessalonians 5:21


                    but test everything; hold fast what is good.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Likewise John gives very similar advice - to test things to see if they are true or not and not to blindly accept what you're told

                    Scripture Verse: 1 John 4:1


                    Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    In fact Proverbs 14:15 demonstrates that the Bible argues directly against blind faith when it informs us that "The simple believes everything, but the prudent gives thought to his steps."

                    Christ offered evidence that He had Risen and didn't demand blind acceptance:

                    Scripture Verse: Luke 24:38-39

                    And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    And as Paul explains, the material body of the resurrected Son of God is what Christianity hinges on. If Christ has not really raised from the dead, then faith is in vain.

                    Scripture Verse: I Cor. 15:13-14

                    But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    And as Peter puts it

                    Scripture Verse: II Peter 1:16

                    For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    This is what we Christians mean by having faith. A faith that is rooted in reality and truth, and not blind faith.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Yup. Or as I have posted multiple times a longer explanation:


                      You are using the wrong translation and missing the truth altogether. Jesus, not you, is the author and finisher of faith.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                        You are using the wrong translation and missing the truth altogether. Jesus, not you, is the author and finisher of faith.
                        It should be self evident that faith by itself does not achieve a whole lot. At the last, people who had enough faith to prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles in Christ's name still find themselves classed as evil doers. Without faith there is no salvation, but faith alone does not secure salvation.
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          It should be self evident that faith by itself does not achieve a whole lot. At the last, people who had enough faith to prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles in Christ's name still find themselves classed as evil doers. Without faith there is no salvation, but faith alone does not secure salvation.
                          You cannot have biblical faith unless God first gives you the Holy Spirit. Self conjured faith cannot save.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                            You cannot have biblical faith unless God first gives you the Holy Spirit. Self conjured faith cannot save.
                            More falderol.

                            Q: "What must I do to be saved."
                            A: "Believe and be baptised..."

                            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              More falderol.

                              Q: "What must I do to be saved."
                              A: "Believe and be baptised..."
                              This is human faith that cannot save. If you must choose to believe, you do not believe but must force your flesh to comply. Biblical faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit which God must provide before you can believe in true faith.

                              Comment

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