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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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What is the Fate of our Sin?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    It seems like this whole sin business began because of the presence of the tree of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. If God hadn't placed that tree in the Garden, there wouldn't have been any sin. It wouldn't have come into existence.

    Why did God put that tree there?
    Because the tree is part of the furniture of that story. The availability of the taboo object is necessary for the violation of the taboo.

    That is approaching the story as a piece of folklore. It is a legitimate approach, such as it is; although it does not deal with the story as theology.

    From another POV, Genesis 2-11.9 can usefully be approached as a series of "transgression stories", stories about "croosing the boundary".

    Gen 2-3 is a TS about how the serpent spoke with human words; and how the man and woman took & ate the forbidden fruit.
    Part of the story is also a doublet of the creation narrative: one of many doublets in Genesis & Exodus. IMO, the creation narrative in 2 is not primarily a creation narrative, but is primarily a part of the transgression story ending with 3.24. I think it doubles, secondarily, as a creation narrative. But its primary purpose is to set the scene for the transgression & expulsion of the human pair. The expulsion story begins with chapter 2 - not at the beginning of 3. First they are placed in God's Garden - & their eating of the fruit leads to their expulsion from it. The serpent was entirely right in what he said would happen if they ate the fruit: he did not mention that they would be expelled from the Garden.

    Gen 4.1-17 is a transgression story.
    Perhaps, since Cain builds a city, that too is a transgression story ?
    So is the bigamy & (further) killing in 4.18-25.
    So are the events in 6.1-4.
    So is the "angelic" & human mixing, resulting in giant offspring, that causes the Flood.
    So, in a way, is the Flood in 6.5-8.22, because it is a sort of reversal of the creative act that separated "the waters above the firmament" from "the waters under the Earth": they are mixed together with the "seas", so that something resembling the pre-creation "formlessness" results.
    The drunkenness of Noah and behaviour of Ham in 9.1-18 are presumably to be taken as two more transgression stories. This is also the first story in which slavery appears.
    The Table in Nations in 10 implies a "crossing of boundaries", because here we have the spreading out of 70 Nations, as compared with the couple in the Garden.
    The mention of Nimrod in 10.8-12 may be another transgression story, seeing as how Israel's true King is God.
    And the story of the Confusion of Tongues at Babel in 11.1-9 shows man "crossing boundaries" by trying to climb up to Heaven.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 10-09-2021, 08:23 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
      Because the tree is part of the furniture of that story. The availability of the taboo object is necessary for the violation of the taboo.

      That is approaching the story as a piece of folklore. It is a legitimate approach, such as it is; although it does not deal with the story as theology.

      From another POV, Genesis 2-11.9 can usefully be approached as a series of "transgression stories", stories about "croosing the boundary".

      Gen 2-3 is a TS about how the serpent spoke with human words; and how the man and woman took & ate the forbidden fruit.
      Part of the story is also a doublet of the creation narrative: one of many doublets in Genesis & Exodus. IMO, the creation narrative in 2 is not primarily a creation narrative, but is primarily a part of the transgression story ending with 3.24. I think it doubles, secondarily, as a creation narrative. But its primary purpose is to set the scene for the transgression & expulsion of the human pair. The expulsion story begins with chapter 2 - not at the beginning of 3. First they are placed in God's Garden - & their eating of the fruit leads to their expulsion from it. The serpent was entirely right in what he said would happen if they ate the fruit: he did not mention that they would be expelled from the Garden.

      Gen 4.1-17 is a transgression story.
      Perhaps, since Cain builds a city, that too is a transgression story ?
      So is the bigamy & (further) killing in 4.18-25.
      So are the events in 6.1-4.
      So is the "angelic" & human mixing, resulting in giant offspring, that causes the Flood.
      So, in a way, is the Flood in 6.5-8.22, because it is a sort of reversal of the creative act that separated "the waters above the firmament" from "the waters under the Earth": they are mixed together with the "seas", so that something resembling the pre-creation "formlessness" results.
      The drunkenness of Noah and behaviour of Ham in 9.1-18 are presumably to be taken as two more transgression stories. This is also the first story in which slavery appears.
      The Table in Nations in 10 implies a "crossing of boundaries", because here we have the spreading out of 70 Nations, as compared with the couple in the Garden.
      The mention of Nimrod in 10.8-12 may be another transgression story, seeing as how Israel's true King is God.
      And the story of the Confusion of Tongues at Babel in 11.1-9 shows man "crossing boundaries" by trying to climb up to Heaven.
      Actually, my point is that the tree was placed in the Garden to manifest Adam's Righteousness.

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