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The Purpose of Signs

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  • #16
    It is clear -- e.g. Matt. 10:7-8; Mark 16:17-18 (regardless of whether we take this as original, or as a later observation-based gloss); Luke 24:47-49 / Acts 1:4-8; 2:1-4, 16-22, 38-39; John 10:25, 37-38; 14:10-12; Rom. 15:19; 1 Cor. 2:4; 1 Cor. 12-14; Gal. 3:5; Heb. 2:4 -- that observable "demonstrations" of supernatural signs, wonders, "works of power," healings, etc. should be normatively expected to accompany the "full" preaching of the Gospel, and among gathered believers. That doesn't mean each and every evangelistic proclamation, nor each gathering, but if they are so extremely rare that even most believers think they belong to another age, if they ever really happened at all, we really need to reconsider whether Scripture is trustworthy, or at least whether it is really meant to be understandable.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Nationalist.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
      It is clear -- e.g. Matt. 10:7-8; Mark 16:17-18 (regardless of whether we take this as original, or as a later observation-based gloss); Luke 24:47-49 / Acts 1:4-8; 2:1-4, 16-22, 38-39; John 10:25, 37-38; 14:10-12; Rom. 15:19; 1 Cor. 2:4; 1 Cor. 12-14; Gal. 3:5; Heb. 2:4 -- that observable "demonstrations" of supernatural signs, wonders, "works of power," healings, etc. should be normatively expected to accompany the "full" preaching of the Gospel, and among gathered believers. That doesn't mean each and every evangelistic proclamation, nor each gathering, but if they are so extremely rare that even most believers think they belong to another age, if they ever really happened at all, we really need to reconsider whether Scripture is trustworthy, or at least whether it is really meant to be understandable.
      Alternatively, we might do well to include in our cogitations, the possibility that our lived reality doesn't meet requirements.
      Last edited by tabibito; 09-29-2021, 04:24 AM.
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        Alternatively, we might do well to include in our cogitations, the possibility that our lived reality doesn't meet requirements.
        What are the "requirements"?

        In His hometown, there seems to be a "familiarity breeds contempt" issue, where the large majority were completely unreceptive. But we know from Mark 9:24 that "unbelief" alone does not disqualify, if admitted and accompanied with proper humility.

        From Matt. 17, we can see that "meagerness" (NASB2020) of faith on the part of preachers can cause failure; I'm not aware of any place where Jesus or anyone else told a seeker, "You don't have enough faith."

        From 1 Cor. 12-14, in the larger context of 1 Cor., we know that the presence of sexual sin (incest) and schisms does not necessarily preclude the operation of the Spirit.
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Nationalist.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Comment


        • #19
          [QUOTE=NorrinRadd;n1309021]

          What are the "requirements"?
          It seems that the Holy Spirit will not endorse a false gospel, and that within certain limits, signs do not necessarily depend on the saintliness of the speaker, but on the truth of his message. Flexibility is limited on that, but close to non-existent for a false gospel. . Willingness to trust or believe that miracles might be forthcoming is also a factor - the "heavy duty" miracles are unlikely where the people are unwilling to be confronted by them. {This is based on observation and assessment of the circumstances where I have known the gifts to be exercised.

          Subtle signs will occur, and sometimes have to be pointed out. Sometimes, even when they have been observed, there is a reluctance to admit that they have occurred.

          Facilitator to study group: Have you noticed anything odd about the pastor's sermons.
          Long pause
          Group member: Well ... sort of ... maybe.
          Other members nod
          Facilitator: It has been going on for months. Why have none of you said anything?
          One factor became obvious: fear of being out of step with the rest of the congregation.



          In His hometown, there seems to be a "familiarity breeds contempt" issue, where the large majority were completely unreceptive. But we know from Mark 9:24 that "unbelief" alone does not disqualify, if admitted and accompanied with proper humility.
          It was certainly a strong factor, as indicated by his comments about a prophet being without honour in his home town and among his own family.

          From Matt. 17, we can see that "meagerness" (NASB2020) of faith on the part of preachers can cause failure; I'm not aware of any place where Jesus or anyone else told a seeker, "You don't have enough faith."
          Quite so - failure is not attributed to the petitioner. It is very hard to believe you have it right when everyone around you says you have it wrong - and that will have a nasty impact on the ability to believe God for miracles. However, failure can also be (frequently) attributed to an attempt to act without authorisation.

          From 1 Cor. 12-14, in the larger context of 1 Cor., we know that the presence of sexual sin (incest) and schisms does not necessarily preclude the operation of the Spirit.
          Could you expand on this one a bit?


          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

          Comment


          • #20


            Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
            That, if true, means that very little professedly Christian preaching is Christian. Some people might be able to stomach that conclusion, ISTM to unchurch a lot of preachers who have preached with much good fruit.
            You're discussing the issue of making disciples of Jesus without the accompaniment of signs. Strictly speaking, these are not disciples if we define that category as those who have stopped serving self and started serving God. The intent was to escape a bad judgment and its outcome, which is still serving self. God's disciples have an affinity with Him, resonate with His desire to save others. The group discussed have no such desire, having a theology to support their attitude, the teaching against Works Righteousness. They want the power of the Holy Spirit to initiate that response. Prolly end up with a situation of waiting for the cows to come home before that happens.

            As for the absence of signs, let's not restrict this to performing miracles. The text says God staged events so that in solving problems, people like Rahab and Nicodemus would be drawn, want to come to Him.

            Ep 2
            10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

            Is 45
            7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

            Jn 9
            1As Jesus passed by, He saw a man who had been blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” 3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4We must carry out the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

            Jn 12
            32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

            Jn 3
            1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to [a]Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [b]signs that You do unless God is with him.”

            Joshua 2
            8Now before they lay down, she came up to them on the roof, 9and said to the men, “I know that the LORD has given you the land, and that the terror of you has fallen on us, and that all the inhabitants of the land have melted away before you. 10“For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you utterly destroyed. 11“When we heard it, our hearts melted and no courage remained in any man any longer because of you; for the LORD your God, He is God in heaven above and on earth beneath.


            However, signs include making darkened secrets open, shedding light on matters that trouble people, explaining difficult Scripture passages, solving moral dilemmas, etc. (Eg. Accounts of the wisdom of Solomon in solving moral and intellectual problems, causing the Queen of the South to be drawn to God, and something greater than Solomon graces our gathering, the presence of the Holy Spirit is greater than Solomon).


            1 Cor 14
            24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.


            Also interesting is the situation of signs being performed without being accompanied by the intent to make disciples of Jesus:


            Mark 9
            38John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. 40For the one who is not against us is [x]for us.


            It seems God allows the undecided to also perform signs, but they must eventually say good things about Jesus, light the way to God, glorify Him, like a spotlight highlights a masterpiece, or face punishment:


            Psalms 50
            15“Call upon me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me.”

            Acts 19
            13But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to [f]use the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had the evil spirits, saying, “I order you in the name of Jesus whom Paul preaches!” 14Now there were seven sons of [g]Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, doing this. 15But the evil spirit responded and said to them, “I recognize Jesus, and I know of Paul, but who are you?” 16And the man in whom was the evil spirit, pounced on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

            Numbers 20
            7Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 8“Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9So Moses took the rod from before the Lord as He commanded him.

            10And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.

            12Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”

            I see no necessity in the Bible for holding that where the Gospel is preached, signs and wonders will in every case undoubtedly follow. Maybe conversions count as sufficient signs.

            [long snip of remainder]
            See above.


            Guys, I request you to consider the above. Please don't dismiss them off hand. You don't have to agree, but think about the ideas, offer constructive criticism. I think that dismissing offhand results in unspiritual responses from myself in return.

            I apologise for any such returns in this thread and others and although some believers think some heat is required for progress to be made, that stepping delicately around on eggshells results in slow movement forward, it need not necessarily be so.

            I also promise to temper my rebuttals, couch them in requests for reconsideration, and otherwise be peaceful. Let's live the lives God envisioned for us, through encouragement of those who feel low, support for those who sacrifice time to listen to the Holy Spirit, and make other efforts to build up the gathering of the saints. I will be the first to pledge support for this fresh approach, please join me in the endeavour. This is my humble request.
            Last edited by footwasher; 09-29-2021, 10:24 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

              What are the "requirements"?
              To run it back a bit -

              That doesn't mean each and every evangelistic proclamation, nor each gathering, but if they are so extremely rare that even most believers think they belong to another age, if they ever really happened at all, we really need to reconsider whether Scripture is trustworthy, or at least whether it is really meant to be understandable.
              An oft advanced explanation for the discrepancy is that "the age of prophecy" or "the age of apostles" has passed; that such things were only temporary measures for the needs of establishing Christianity. (exact expressions of the concept vary.) Nothing in the Bible leads to the conclusion that these were intended as temporary measures, but the explanations do overcome the conflict between lived experience and scripture.

              However, few though they be, acts do occur demonstrating that the authority to exercise the gifts of the Spirit still exists. That gives rise to the thorny problem of identifying whether a given action is from God's response to prayer, or from an individual acting in the capacity of, as it were, an authorised/accredited/empowered representative.

              Either way, enough demonstrations of the Spirit and of power occur to demonstrate that our lived experience is flawed. Why that is is a matter for exploration.
              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                To run it back a bit -

                An oft advanced explanation for the discrepancy is that "the age of prophecy" or "the age of apostles" has passed; that such things were only temporary measures for the needs of establishing Christianity. (exact expressions of the concept vary.) Nothing in the Bible leads to the conclusion that these were intended as temporary measures, but the explanations do overcome the conflict between lived experience and scripture.

                However, few though they be, acts do occur demonstrating that the authority to exercise the gifts of the Spirit still exists. That gives rise to the thorny problem of identifying whether a given action is from God's response to prayer, or from an individual acting in the capacity of, as it were, an authorised/accredited/empowered representative.

                Either way, enough demonstrations of the Spirit and of power occur to demonstrate that our lived experience is flawed. Why that is is a matter for exploration.
                Dr Daniel Wallace, a Cessationist, and the author of several Greek textbooks used in seminaries worldwide, is noted for having a running debate with Wayne Grudem, another author of books used in seminaries worldwide, one especially being his Systematic Theology.


                He used his knowledge of Greek to rebut the latter's work supporting Continualism. However in 1994 he himself experienced miraculous events in his life that changed his thinking. This resulted in his authoring a number of articles and even a book.

                ​​​​
                Wallace, Daniel B. (1996). Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of New Testament Greek. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan. ISBN 978-0-310-21895-1. OCLC 37227757.


                ——— (2000). The Basics of New Testament Syntax: An Intermediate Grammar. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan. ISBN 0-310-23229-5. OCLC 43684564.


                ———; Sawyer, M. James, eds. (2005). Who's Afraid of the Holy Spirit? An Investigation into the Ministry of the Spirit of God Today. Dallas, TX: Biblical Studies Press. ISBN 978-0-737-50068-4. OCLC 62866519.


                He explains why the Holy Spirit seems to perform works that overcome the laws of nature more in third world countries (solving of intellectual problems would not have much impact there, they are first world problems):

                Quote
                This is what I would call concentric cessationism, as opposed to linear cessationism. That is, rather than taking a chronologically linear approach, this kind of cessationism affirms that as the gospel moves, like the rippling effect of a stone dropping into a pond, in a space-time expanding circle away from first century Jerusalem, the sign gifts will still exist on the cutting edge of that circle. Thus, for example, in third world countries at the time when the gospel is first proclaimed, the sign gifts would be present. This view, then, would allow for these gifts to exist on the frontiers of Christianity, but would be more skeptical of them in the 'worked over' areas.


                https://bible.org/article/uneasy-con...ic-evangelical

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                  Dr Daniel Wallace, a Cessationist, and the author of several Greek textbooks used in seminaries worldwide, is noted for having a running debate with Wayne Grudem, another author of books used in seminaries worldwide, one especially being his Systematic Theology.


                  He used his knowledge of Greek to rebut the latter's work supporting Continualism. However in 1994 he himself experienced miraculous events in his life that changed his thinking. This resulted in his authoring a number of articles and even a book.

                  ​​​​
                  Wallace, Daniel B. (1996). Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of New Testament Greek. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan. ISBN 978-0-310-21895-1. OCLC 37227757.


                  ——— (2000). The Basics of New Testament Syntax: An Intermediate Grammar. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan. ISBN 0-310-23229-5. OCLC 43684564.


                  ———; Sawyer, M. James, eds. (2005). Who's Afraid of the Holy Spirit? An Investigation into the Ministry of the Spirit of God Today. Dallas, TX: Biblical Studies Press. ISBN 978-0-737-50068-4. OCLC 62866519.


                  He explains why the Holy Spirit seems to perform works that overcome the laws of nature more in third world countries (solving of intellectual problems would not have much impact there, they are first world problems):

                  Quote
                  This is what I would call concentric cessationism, as opposed to linear cessationism. That is, rather than taking a chronologically linear approach, this kind of cessationism affirms that as the gospel moves, like the rippling effect of a stone dropping into a pond, in a space-time expanding circle away from first century Jerusalem, the sign gifts will still exist on the cutting edge of that circle. Thus, for example, in third world countries at the time when the gospel is first proclaimed, the sign gifts would be present. This view, then, would allow for these gifts to exist on the frontiers of Christianity, but would be more skeptical of them in the 'worked over' areas.


                  https://bible.org/article/uneasy-con...ic-evangelical
                  The concept does not explain the occurrence of "sign gifts" in places that are not on the "cutting edge." It might be better to consider the reasons that the Bible itself advances for a lack of "nature suspending" miracles.
                  Luke 11:29 The evil generation will see no sign save that of Jonah, but many were seeing signs even when those words were spoken. Concurrent with the evil generation was a good generation.
                  James 4:1-3 (verse 4 is not irrelevant) states some of the reasons why God is not acting. That passage can be considered in conjunction with Peter's failure to walk on water, which Jesus attributed to a lack of faith, and the performance of scant few miracles by Jesus in his home town - also attributed to a lack of faith on the people's part. Time and again the Bible attributes a lack of palpable movement by the Holy Spirit to a failure in the people: God's silence is consistently attributed to human instigation. It is far easier to find an excuse for God's silence than it is to examine ourselves for fault that we might address. Even a small thing like Jesus' declaration, "My disciples will fast," is given no consideration. How often do we encounter anyone who even bothers to ask, "Why are there no miracles?" without that person immediately denying their possibility?
                  sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    The concept does not explain the occurrence of "sign gifts" in places that are not on the "cutting edge." It might be better to consider the reasons that the Bible itself advances for a lack of "nature suspending" miracles.
                    Luke 11:29 The evil generation will see no sign save that of Jonah, but many were seeing signs even when those words were spoken. Concurrent with the evil generation was a good generation.
                    James 4:1-3 (verse 4 is not irrelevant) states some of the reasons why God is not acting. That passage can be considered in conjunction with Peter's failure to walk on water, which Jesus attributed to a lack of faith, and the performance of scant few miracles by Jesus in his home town - also attributed to a lack of faith on the people's part. Time and again the Bible attributes a lack of palpable movement by the Holy Spirit to a failure in the people: God's silence is consistently attributed to human instigation. It is far easier to find an excuse for God's silence than it is to examine ourselves for fault that we might address. Even a small thing like Jesus' declaration, "My disciples will fast," is given no consideration. How often do we encounter anyone who even bothers to ask, "Why are there no miracles?" without that person immediately denying their possibility?


                    I agree. Wallace sees situations and reaches conclusions that superficially match the evidence. Scripture tells a different story.


                    God promised a state of human existence (Land) to believers who turned away from serving self to serving Him and others, where these believers could perform signs (milk and honey) resulting in gathering His sheep back to Him, in turn gaining wages that would not rust and perish, such vocation obtainable through passing a training course, where bread from heaven would be given that would similarly draw the world.


                    Israel agreed, shown in her coming out of Israel, but with some scepticism:


                    Quote

                    Can God Spread a Table in the Wilderness?

                    Resource by John Piper

                    Scripture: Psalm 78:1–19 Topic: Redemptive History

                    There are shorter ways to get from Egypt to Palestine than through the wilderness of Sinai. Mount Sinai is about 200 miles out of the way—which is bad enough if you are driving a car, but if you are walking and there is scarcely any water or shade, then the detour really tests your patience. You would think that if God were your travel agent, he would know the terrain and the shortest route to Palestine. You would think that if he can divide the Red Sea, a direct and painless route to the promised land would be a snap. Surely he would have given the law at Kadesh Barnea, or Hebron, or by the Jordan, or some place a little more on the way.


                    https://www.desiringgod.org/messages...the-wilderness


                    So rather than only the front edge of the Gospel message witnessing signs, the conditions seem to be:


                    1st Century Israel


                    Covenant members, Jews, are eligible to see signs, receive faith training edification (that left out the Syro-phoenician woman)


                    Even covenant members will eventually stop seeing signs because of unbelief, lack of faith, because what they saw did not match their expectations (Israel expected to be empowered to perform world attracting signs just because they were children of Abraham, but the children of Abraham are not identified by possessing the Law, as expressed in hearing it read out every Shabbat, but by doing it, faithfulness. In that regard, some Gentiles were more qualified! This led to the sign of Jonah being given, the turning away from Israel to the Gentile Nations, who were invited to the greatest feeding from Heaven, the Wedding Feast, Cross and Resurrection, where ALL had to display great faith, wedding garments!).



                    Romans 2
                    12For all who have sinned [j]without the Law will also perish [k]without the Law, and all who have sinned [l]under the Law will be judged [m]by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers [n]of the Law who are [o]righteous before God, but the doers [p]of the Law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have [q]the Law [r]instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having [s]the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

                    Today

                    Covenant members, both Jews and Gentiles, identified as those separated from the world, are eligible to see signs, receive faith training edification (this leaves out those still in the world).


                    Even covenant members will eventually stop seeing signs because of unbelief, lack of faith, because what they saw did not match their expectations (Israel expected to be empowered to perform world attracting signs just because they were children of Abraham, but the children of Abraham are not identified by possessing the Law, as expressed in hearing it read out every Shabbat, but by doing it, faithfulness. Today we have to be loyal, like Abraham was loyal, and this means faithful to Jesus, as Paul taught the disciples in Ephesus of Acts 19, specifically, by coming out of the world. Most of us are stunted in our growth: we are superficial in our coming out of Egypt, are not transformed by the initial witnessing of the signs, which should cause a having of a different spirit, like born again Caleb, who changed from a sceptical murmuring follower to a clear minded, encouraging, rallying leader).

                    The short answer, if you come out of the world in response to the call, you will see signs, either natural law defying phenomena or supernatural explanations of spiritual or moral dilemmas.
                    Last edited by footwasher; 09-30-2021, 01:43 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      The Word is a useful resource for intensive study if you don't already have a Bible search app.
                      Microsoft Defender SmartScreen prevented an unrecognized app from starting. Running this app might put your PC at risk.




                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

                        Microsoft Defender SmartScreen prevented an unrecognized app from starting. Running this app might put your PC at risk.


                        Weird - it causes no argument from Microsoft when I run it - Maybe going through their front door will solve the problem.
                        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          Weird - it causes no argument from Microsoft when I run it - Maybe going through their front door will solve the problem.
                          I'm wondering if this is just a standard warning given for any app not recognized, but I never got it before

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            I'm wondering if this is just a standard warning given for any app not recognized, but I never got it before
                            I'm running defender (but I don't think it's smart screen). This is the fourth or fifth computer I've installed it on, and never had a warning from any protection software.
                            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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