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The Purpose of Signs

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  • The Purpose of Signs

    The reason for signs, according to the Bible, is to draw people to God.

    In other words, when Jesus performed a miracle, people would change, be turned to follow God. However , when people were drawn to Him, Jesus was disappointed, because they were coming for the wrong reasons. They wanted the benefit that came from the signs, bread.

    You might react by saying, "Crazy, these guys wanted bread? Can't they see they'll go hungry again?"

    But what is the alternative? Is the right response to follow Jesus because we want to see signs? That's what the text seems to say.

    John 6.26Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

    However, the next question would be, "Well, what is the advantage of seeing signs over just getting the benefits of the signs, bread, in their case?"

    The answer might be, "Well bread makes us physically strong, but signs make us spiritually healthy". That is the conventional wisdom, what preachers teach.


    So wrong!

    The right response to Jesus's accusation is to say, "Okay, you're right, we were following you because we were getting fed, but really, as you say, we should be following you to find out how you do what you do, motivate people to follow God, because the Gospel is the announcement that the promise to Abraham is now available, to be able to bless the world, by being a light guiding them to God, and you seem to have the answer".

    John 9.1As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” 3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4“We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work. 5“While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.
    ...

    John 3.1Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

    3Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
    ...

    So the next time we see a good post from someone IN the Kingdom, a gifted person, let's try to find out how he did it.


    1 Cor 14.24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
    ...

    In other words, theology is not to feed, make people bloated with knowledge, or even spiritually healthy, mature but to move, inspire them to become blessings to the world, in the way they just saw.
    Last edited by footwasher; 07-18-2021, 12:55 AM.

  • #2
    [the next time we see a good post from someone IN the Kingdom, a gifted person, let's try to find out how he did it.


    1 Cor 14.24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
    You might want to try adding 1 Cor 2:4-5 into the equation.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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    • #3
      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      You might want to try adding 1 Cor 2:4-5 into the equation.
      Great post. But the question would then be:

      How did you get the Holy Spirit to help you?

      And everyone claims the Holy Spirit guides them, but they have contradictory interpretations of Scripture. So how do we know what is from the Spirit, and what is a result of pizza bingeing the night before?
      Last edited by footwasher; 07-18-2021, 07:06 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Perhaps do a run through to find the conditions that need to be met before God answers prayer. Don't take the immediate and obvious answers too much to heart though - there is a raft of modifiers that need to be considered, and they are hard to isolate. So - do a check for "prayer" and "answer" to start, then expand the parameters.

        The Word is a useful resource for intensive study if you don't already have a Bible search app.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          The Word is a useful resource for intensive study if you don't already have a Bible search app.
          My favorite Bible Study program.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Nationalist.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by tabibito View Post
            Perhaps do a run through to find the conditions that need to be met before God answers prayer. Don't take the immediate and obvious answers too much to heart though - there is a raft of modifiers that need to be considered, and they are hard to isolate. So - do a check for "prayer" and "answer" to start, then expand the parameters.

            The Word is a useful resource for intensive study if you don't already have a Bible search app.
            A quick regroup.


            The opening post was a study on the purpose of signs. Answered as to be tools to change people, cause them to turn to following God.


            We have digressed into the study of signs manifested as answers to prayer for healing or opening up of Scripture, versus personal opinions. These digressions often happen, are unavoidable, but really, quite welcome!


            You seem to say for God to be with us, as seen in right interpretation or successful answered prayer, we must ask, and we must study.


            But Jesus said the secret to being successful in motivating people to seek God was to be in the Kingdom. Then the interpretations we give would be so overwhelmingly coherent, our audience would realise we had been with God:


            Acts 4.13Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus.


            What would the spiritual condition of being IN the Kingdom look like?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by footwasher View Post

              We have digressed into the study of signs manifested as answers to prayer for healing or opening up of Scripture, versus personal opinions. These digressions often happen, are unavoidable, but really, quite welcome!
              I take it as axiomatic that where and when the true gospel is preached, signs and wonders will be provided to affirm that the true gospel is being preached (and to allow that preaching to be undertaken in full confidence). See the apostles' prayer, Acts24:29-30


              You seem to say for God to be with us, as seen in right interpretation or successful answered prayer, we must ask, and we must study.
              Just so. I don't know of any other way to establish a firm foundation in truth, nor to continue to grow in knowledge and wisdom. I am NOT saying that this is sufficient in itself, nor that it needs any great development before a person can be said to be with God. In fact - there was one person (that I know and within my lifetime) who was given authority. The entirety of his theology was comprised of two clauses. 1/ If the God of the Bible exists, miracles are inevitable. 2/ If this God exists, he is not willing that any should die. Note those "ifs" - they were not confident statements of a belief in God. However, without a foundation in study and a developed knowledge, he was vulnerable to false, faith destroying doctrines.

              But Jesus said the secret to being successful in motivating people to seek God was to be in the Kingdom. Then the interpretations we give would be so overwhelmingly coherent, our audience would realise we had been with God:
              And God will be with us to demonstrate the fact. Therein is the motivator. Our part in that demonstration ... By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you have love one for another. That love must meet with positive, practical demonstrations of its existence.

              Acts 4.13Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus.
              By the standards of conventional scholarship that would be true, but they had spent some years being taught as apprentices under tutelage of the quintessential prophet.

              What would the spiritual condition of being IN the Kingdom look like?
              One word answer: discipleship. Which of course finds its expression in love for others, and in a commitment to become a saint - that is, a person of God - regardless of the cost and risk attending that endeavour. Part of that process is cleansing ones self under the aegis of the Holy Spirit. see 1John3:2-3
              Last edited by tabibito; 07-18-2021, 08:08 PM.
              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                I take it as axiomatic that where and when the true gospel is preached, signs and wonders will be provided to affirm that the true gospel is being preached (and to allow that preaching to be undertaken in full confidence). See the apostles' prayer, Acts24:29-30
                Acts 4.23 On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God.(AA) “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heavens and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.(AB) 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:(AC)

                “‘Why do the nations rage
                and the peoples plot in vain?
                26 The kings of the earth rise up
                and the rulers band together
                against the Lord
                and against his anointed one.[b]’[c](AD)

                27 Indeed Herod(AE) and Pontius Pilate(AF) met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus,(AG) whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.(AH) 29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness.(AI) 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders(AJ) through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”(AK)

                31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken.(AL) And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit(AM) and spoke the word of God(AN) boldly.(AO)

                So according to you, it is a given that when the true Gospel is preached, signs and wonders accompany the act.

                However, the text says the apostles prayed for signs and wonders to counter the resistance to the preaching of the Gospel. It wasn't automatic.

                Just so. I don't know of any other way to establish a firm foundation in truth, nor to continue to grow in knowledge and wisdom. I am NOT saying that this is sufficient in itself, nor that it needs any great development before a person can be said to be with God. In fact - there was one person (that I know and within my lifetime) who was given authority. The entirety of his theology was comprised of two clauses. 1/ If the God of the Bible exists, miracles are inevitable. 2/ If this God exists, he is not willing that any should die. Note those "ifs" - they were not confident statements of a belief in God. However, without a foundation in study and a developed knowledge, he was vulnerable to false, faith destroying doctrines.

                But Nicodemus attributed the signs of Jesus, healing physically blind eyes and spiritual too, by opening darkened Scripture, which God made so in advance...

                Is 45.7I am the Lord, who creates evil, and makes dark.


                John 9.1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

                3“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”


                Ep 2.9You were formed in Christ Jesus, to do works, that God prepared in advance, that you may walk in them.


                ...to God being with the doer of great works. So rather than a strong, wise man solving problems through strength and wisdom, these great works are done by empty people, without strength or wisdom or through exercise or study, SO THAT GOD IS DISPLAYED through weakness and foolishness.

                Imagine, Nicodemus agrees God is with Jesus, who in person is unimpressive, and whose background is of a carpenter, a trady. Obviously, the source of His ability is external. God's strategy is successful. However, what puzzles Nicodemus is how this person, among many weak and unschooled people, has inherited the promise to Abraham, of being a blessing to the world, through being a light guiding to God.

                And God will be with us to demonstrate the fact. Therein is the motivator. Our part in that demonstration ... By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you have love one for another. That love must meet with positive, practical demonstrations of its existence.
                Here you switched from exercise and study, to love as the proof of God being with a person, in turn blessing the world through being a light. That means God was with Gandhi. But Gandhi never manifested signs, nor did he lead anyone to God.

                Besides the text says the proof that God was with a believer was the manifestation of signs, and Jesus attributed His possession of this ability to being in the Kingdom, in turn through being born again. So the answer must lie in understanding what being born again means.

                By the standards of conventional scholarship that would be true, but they had spent some years being taught as apprentices under tutelage of the quintessential prophet.
                However, the text shows at many places the cluelessness of the disciples, prior to the Cross, remarked on by Jesus as from being too hard for them to bear, which changed when they entered the Kingdom, were in union with God.

                One word answer: discipleship. Which of course finds its expression in love for others, and in a commitment to become a saint - that is, a person of God - regardless of the cost and risk attending that endeavour. Part of that process is cleansing ones self under the aegis of the Holy Spirit. see 1John3:2-3
                Again you claim discipline, effort is responsible, required, to enter the Kingdom, when the text says otherwise, and not at one place, but at several, presenting a repetitive motif or theme, confirming the view by reinforcement.

                Imagine being told of a profession with the promise of being a good source of livelihood, wouldn't all people show interest? How about when, on further enquiry, we were told it required doing a course, which required upfront payment, and then completing and passing it's certifying test, all this would result in being awarded the licence to practice that profession?

                Is this the plan presented in Scripture?

                Consider, Abraham was told that if he heard with faith (payment) he would receive the Holy Spirit (a training course involving being put in dangerous situations and then being rescued, designed to increase faith, and change a person from being a fearful follower to a courageous leader), resulting in being able to qualify for being awarded the licence to be blessings to the world.

                Did Abraham hear with faith? He did.

                Did he receive the Holy Spirit. He did. He was put in harm's way at the hands of Pharaoh and then rescued.

                Did the training take? Yes, it did. He drank from the Rock, was ground that absorbed rain, profited from it and brought forth a crop. He had had a different spirit, so that when tested, showed he was born again, did not take steps to lie to protect himself and his family, fully trusted God, was different from before, born again, and so was enabled to obey, agree to sacrifice Isaac, when commanded.

                What about Israel? When the course was explained to them, that they would receive training in strengthening their faith through great demonstrations of God's rescuing powers, they were sceptical:

                Ps 78.8They doubted God, saying "Can He really spread a table in the desert?"

                Only Caleb profited from the training:

                Num 14.20The Lord replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked. 21Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the Lord fills the whole earth, 22not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times— 23not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their ancestors. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.

                However none of these heroes of faith, successful completers of training, of learning obedience from suffering, received what was promised, entered the real Rest, actually available only after the Cross:

                Heb 11.39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

                How does this explanation look? Is it a coherent view of how one can get into the Kingdom?

                Last edited by footwasher; 07-19-2021, 03:17 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  [QUOTE=footwasher;n1283751]


                  So according to you, it is a given that when the true Gospel is preached, signs and wonders accompany the act.

                  However, the text says the apostles prayed for signs and wonders to counter the resistance to the preaching of the Gospel. It wasn't automatic.
                  ? If that had been my take, the Apostles' prayer would have been the last place that I referred you to. The full gospel is not preached by merely parrotting the right words - it is heavily dependent on the preachers' attitude toward God.

                  But Nicodemus attributed the signs of Jesus, healing physically blind eyes and spiritual too, by opening darkened Scripture, which God made so in advance...
                  Nicodemus stated that no-one could perform the signs that Jesus did unless God was with him. The full gospel cannot be preached unless God is with the preacher.


                  John 9.1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

                  3“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
                  It is an interesting statement isn't it. There will be, is, or was a time when no-one could do the work of God. (of course, it is reasonable to suppose that "no-one" is hyperbolic.)


                  Ep 2.9You were formed in Christ Jesus, to do works, that God prepared in advance, that you may walk in them.
                  Don't quote that to people who think it unimportant to do something about their sins.


                  ...to God being with the doer of great works. So rather than a strong, wise man solving problems through strength and wisdom, these great works are done by empty people, without strength or wisdom or through exercise or study, SO THAT GOD IS DISPLAYED through weakness and foolishness.
                  Neither Paul nor James were idiotes. Wisdom is praised as an attribute throughout both testaments. In a parable, the bridesmaids who exercised wisdom were praised and held as examples of proper conduct. Worldly wisdom is not portrayed as a good thing - but the wisdom that comes from above is portrayed as good, and wisdom cannot be exercised in the absence of adequate knowledge.

                  Imagine, Nicodemus agrees God is with Jesus, who in person is unimpressive, and whose background is of a carpenter, a trady. Obviously, the source of His ability is external. God's strategy is successful. However, what puzzles Nicodemus is how this person, among many weak and unschooled people, has inherited the promise to Abraham, of being a blessing to the world, through being a light guiding to God.
                  I don't recall Nicodemus ever referring to anything beyond the authority to perform miracles as attesting that God was with Jesus. A person's background is irrelevant to heaven - it isn't restricted to people of low station, which should be obvious from the range of social status for the people who came to Christ.

                  Here you switched from exercise and study, to love as the proof of God being with a person, in turn blessing the world through being a light. That means God was with Gandhi. But Gandhi never manifested signs, nor did he lead anyone to God.
                  ? Of course I did - how do you tell that the gospel being preached is the gospel of Christ? Signs and wonders are not the key indicator of true signs and wonders, and Jesus was not just spilling air when he said that there would be false preachers with false signs and wonders. I spoke of love within a context of demonstrated authority. Add to that, the Bereans were praised for comparing what Paul was preaching with scripture before they committed themselves to his gospel.

                  Besides the text says the proof that God was with a believer was the manifestation of signs, and Jesus attributed His possession of this ability to being in the Kingdom, in turn through being born again. So the answer must lie in understanding what being born again means.
                  Are you claiming that Jesus did not say "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you have love one for another." John 13: 34-35. So what does all this demonstrate? That only one attribute establishes whether a person is in Christ? By no means.

                  However, the text shows at many places the cluelessness of the disciples, prior to the Cross, remarked on by Jesus as from being too hard for them to bear, which changed when they entered the Kingdom, were in union with God.
                  I don't recall any record where Jesus declared that to be praiseworthy.

                  Again you claim discipline, effort is responsible, required, to enter the Kingdom, when the text says otherwise, and not at one place, but at several, presenting a repetitive motif or theme, confirming the view by reinforcement.

                  Imagine being told of a profession with the promise of being a good source of livelihood, wouldn't all people show interest? How about when, on further enquiry, we were told it required doing a course, which required upfront payment, and then completing and passing it's certifying test, all this would result in being awarded the licence to practice that profession?

                  Is this the plan presented in Scripture?
                  Argument to the contrary notwithstanding, yes. Perseverance is actually required.

                  Consider, Abraham was told that if he heard with faith (payment) he would receive the Holy Spirit (a training course involving being put in dangerous situations and then being rescued, designed to increase faith, and change a person from being a fearful follower to a courageous leader), resulting in being able to qualify for being awarded the licence to be blessings to the world.

                  Did Abraham hear with faith? He did.

                  Did he receive the Holy Spirit. He did. He was put in harm's way at the hands of Pharaoh and then rescued.

                  Did the training take? Yes, it did. He drank from the Rock, was ground that absorbed rain, profited from it and brought forth a crop. He had had a different spirit, so that when tested, showed he was born again, did not take steps to lie to protect himself and his family, fully trusted God, was different from before, born again, and so was enabled to obey, agree to sacrifice Isaac, when commanded.
                  Yes - and he demonstrated the proof of those claims by the way he lived, if James is to believed. (James 2:21-24)

                  What about Israel? When the course was explained to them, that they would receive training in strengthening their faith through great demonstrations of God's rescuing powers, they were sceptical:

                  Ps 78.8They doubted God, saying "Can He really spread a table in the desert?"

                  Only Caleb profited from the training:

                  Num 14.20The Lord replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked. 21Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the Lord fills the whole earth, 22not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times— 23not one of them will ever see the land I promised on oath to their ancestors. No one who has treated me with contempt will ever see it. 24But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.
                  And there it is - receiving the blessings of God doesn't mean a whole lot in the absence of an appropriate response.


                  Last edited by tabibito; 07-19-2021, 04:46 AM.
                  sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                  Comment


                  • #10


                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    ? If that had been my take, the Apostles' prayer would have been the last place that I referred you to. The full gospel is not preached by merely parrotting the right words - it is heavily dependent on the preachers' attitude toward God.

                    Give Scripture to support this. It's a great idea, and I would love it to be true, but a map is right because it provides a correctly traced path, not because it's pretty.


                    Nicodemus stated that no-one could perform the signs that Jesus did unless God was with him. The full gospel cannot be preached unless God is with the preacher.

                    Give Scriptural support.


                    It is an interesting statement isn't it. There will be, is, or was a time when no-one could do the work of God. (of course, it is reasonable to suppose that "no-one" is hyperbolic.)

                    Simple. Jesus had specific instructions to give Israel bread from heaven, like Moses. When the training was given, a test was to be given. After that, no more edification/education/light guiding could be given. Chorazin and Bethesda already showed signs of flunking, even though the educational material had been so good. They would not be enlightened. So, no, no one could work is not hyperbole. Can you imagine your examiner opening a text book and giving you information during a test?


                    Don't quote that to people who think it unimportant to do something about their sins.

                    It's not to do with dealing with sins. God made a man blind in advance, so that when Jesus healed him, walked in that work, God's presence would be seen with Jesus, and people would be drawn to Him, like Nicodemus was. It's the schema I'm explaining.


                    Neither Paul nor James were idiotes. Wisdom is praised as an attribute throughout both testaments. In a parable, the bridesmaids who exercised wisdom were praised and held as examples of proper conduct. Worldly wisdom is not portrayed as a good thing - but the wisdom that comes from above is portrayed as good, and wisdom cannot be exercised in the absence of adequate knowledge.

                    In my interpretation, it is important that God be recognised as the source of the healing or the opening of darkened Scripture. If a top scholar explained Scripture, wouldn't it be considered 'natural'? The act must be supernatural, for it to be attributed to God's presence in the doer. Therefore, weak people, people with a thorn in their side, should be doers of the signs.


                    I don't recall Nicodemus ever referring to anything beyond the authority to perform miracles as attesting that God was with Jesus. A person's background is irrelevant to heaven - it isn't restricted to people of low station, which should be obvious from the range of social status for the people who came to Christ.

                    Nicodemus did not attribute the signs to authority, but to the presence of God in the person. A human being had done a supernatural act. A carpenter had opened darkened Scripture. The lesser the status of the doer, the more the good impression, the accentuation of God's involvement, the visibilty of His finger in the doing.


                    2 Cor 12.7Because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to [b]torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast [c]about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I delight in weaknesses, in [d]insults, in distresses, in persecutions, in difficulties, in behalf of Christ; for when I am weak, then I am strong.


                    ? Of course I did - how do you tell that the gospel being preached is the gospel of Christ? Signs and wonders are not the key indicator of true signs and wonders, and Jesus was not just spilling air when he said that there would be false preachers with false signs and wonders. I spoke of love within a context of demonstrated authority. Add to that, the Bereans were praised for comparing what Paul was preaching with scripture before they committed themselves to his gospel.

                    Give Scriptural support that people will see the presence of God in the person, be drawn to Him, like Nicodemus, BECAUSE that person has worked and studied hard. In the case of Nicodemus and Rahab and Simon the Sorcerer even, all were motivated to follow God because of signs, not hard work and study.


                    Are you claiming that Jesus did not say "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, that you have love one for another." John 13: 34-35. So what does all this demonstrate? That only one attribute establishes whether a person is in Christ? By no means.

                    Sure, they would know they were disciples of Jesus, but they would not consider it reason to follow God, that that person was IN Christ. The only way they would recognise Christ to be with the person would be if he performed signs. That's what the text says.


                    I don't recall any record where Jesus declared that to be praiseworthy.

                    Never said it was. You claimed they became experts after three years of 'tutelage'. The record shows they were confused even after three years. They only taught with authority, were knowledgeable, after the Cross. Many of the previous teaching became clearer. It says they remembered the words He had previously spoken.


                    Argument to the contrary notwithstanding, yes. Perseverance is actually required.

                    Glad you agree. Perseverance, and results:


                    Matt 11.21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.


                    Heb 6.7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;


                    Yes - and he demonstrated the proof of those claims by the way he lived, if James is to believed. (James 2:21-24)

                    Agreed.


                    And there it is - receiving the blessings of God doesn't mean a whole lot in the absence of an appropriate response.

                    So what is your experience on this matter? Did you go through the course? Have you received the Holy Spirit? What was the good news heard by you, which you believed? What baptism did you receive?
                    Last edited by footwasher; 07-19-2021, 02:06 PM.

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                    • #11
                      In other words, do people want to be like you?


                      2 Chronicles 9.5Then she said to the king, “It was a true [d]story that I heard in my own land about your words and your wisdom. 6But I did not believe their [e]stories until I came and my own eyes saw it all. And behold, not even half of the greatness of your wisdom was reported to me. You have surpassed the report that I heard. 7How [f]blessed are your men, how [g]blessed are these servants of yours, who stand before you continually and hear your wisdom! 8Blessed be the LORD your God who delighted in you, setting you on His throne as king for the LORD your God; because your God loved Israel, establishing them forever, He made you king over them, to carry out justice and righteousness.” 9Then she gave the king [h]120 talents of gold and a very great amount of balsam oil and precious stones; there had never been balsam oil like that which the queen of Sheba gave King Solomon.

                      Luke 11:31
                      The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


                      1 Cor 14.24But if an unbeliever or uninstructed person comes in while everyone is prophesying, he will be convicted and called to account by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be made known. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!”



                      https://youtu.be/9JDzlhW3XTM
                      Last edited by footwasher; 07-20-2021, 02:13 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                        So what is your experience on this matter?
                        I have some experience, not a whole lot.

                        POST 7 - the second "paragraph"
                        In fact - there was one person (that I know and within my lifetime) who was given authority. The entirety of his theology was comprised of two clauses. 1/ If the God of the Bible exists, miracles are inevitable. 2/ If this God exists, he is not willing that any should die. Note those "ifs" - they were not confident statements of a belief in God. However, without a foundation in study and a developed knowledge, he was vulnerable to false, faith destroying doctrines.



                        That person is me.

                        Did you go through the course?
                        Don't I wish. It is still in progress.

                        Have you received the Holy Spirit?
                        Yes.

                        What was the good news heard by you, which you believed?
                        It was an encounter. If I had ever heard the gospel, the hearing was long forgotten.

                        What baptism did you receive?
                        Baptism in water and in the Spirit.


                        I am still considering how to best address the other issues that you raised.
                        Last edited by tabibito; 07-20-2021, 02:56 AM.
                        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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