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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Determinism & Paul

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  • #16
    Originally posted by RBerman View Post
    Certainly the Bible never speaks of God having high esteem for human free will; quite to the contrary, the Bible emphasizes the damage wrought by human autonomy. .
    Aha! I knew there was a little free-will theist in you, RB!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
      Depends on what you mean by "God's will," an ambiguous term as has been discussed upthread. If you are talking about God's commands, then no, God did not command David to break the Ten Commandments. If you are talking about God's sovereign control of all things, then if God had intended to disallow David from breaking the commandments, David would not have done so.
      A fair comment. However, given David was possibly the most despicable person known to the Abrahamic religions, how was it that he was chosen as God's elect and the precursor (prototype) of Christ?

      I have a very orthodox opinion on this observance but I'm very interested in collecting other views...

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
        The problem of course isn't the Law, but our flesh. How can something that is fleshly uphold something that is spiritual? (Answer it can't) -- thus our need for Christ and the Holy Spirit.
        The problem of course was Moses' ordinances. Moses adopted the advice of his father-in-law, the Median priest Jethro. Thus we read of the absolute corruption of the Judges, the complete failure of the Levites and Cohens. The social, political and economic bankruptcy caused by the usury laws. Moses' ordinances were unfulfillable because they were founded on a corrupt premise based (from what we can tell from scripture) on Midianite practices. That is why they are so readily discarded by the Christian world (also, there is a good chance that later Judaism's rules, regulations and practices were the result of priestly interference from the time of Ezra.)
        Last edited by apostoli; 03-07-2014, 07:54 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by RBerman View Post
          ...which includes inciting David to take a wicked census (2 Sam 24) and then sending a plague as punishment.
          My spin on this is that Israel was punished because the people set David above God. That is: David viewed his victories as the result of his own prowess, rather than God's support/protection. Thus in one part of scripture we read the Devil caused the vexation, and another that God caused the vexation. Simple reconciliation: God gave David his head (to use a horseman's terminology) and David faltered...revealing his vanity...and the vanity of his subjects...
          Last edited by apostoli; 03-07-2014, 08:10 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by RBerman View Post
            Every philosophical/theological construct somehow attempts to explain how and why an omnipotent God allows sin and suffering rather than preventing it.
            Not discussing why God allows sin, but rather why he deterministically causes it to happen..
            One common suggestion is something like, "God loves human free will more than he loves an absence of sin, so he tolerates sin." That seems at least as problematic as the problem you identify, in which God ordains to do that which he forbids, and then punishes them for it. Certainly the Bible never speaks of God having high esteem for human free will; quite to the contrary, the Bible emphasizes the damage wrought by human autonomy.
            Human autonomy, according to you, that monkey does not exist….

            The reality of the situation is that we don't understand how God thinks or why He does all the things He does, so we just have to go with what He has said in Scripture that He has done, which includes inciting David to take a wicked census (2 Sam 24) and then sending a plague as punishment.
            If we cannot understand how God thinks, then your basis for denying free will goes out the window.

            Can you show me the scriptures where God incites David to take a census,

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            • #21
              If you are suggesting that the law of Moses was less than holy, then you are incorrect.

              Comment


              • #22
                David Counts the People

                24 The Lord was angry at Israel again, and he made David think it would be a good idea to count the people in Israel and Judah. 2 So David told Joab and the army officers,[a] “Go to every tribe in Israel, from the town of Dan in the north all the way south to Beersheba, and count everyone who can serve in the army. I want to know how many there are.”

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                  A fair comment. However, given David was possibly the most despicable person known to the Abrahamic religions, how was it that he was chosen as God's elect and the precursor (prototype) of Christ? I have a very orthodox opinion on this observance but I'm very interested in collecting other views...
                  I don't share your view that David was "the most despicable person," nor would that pose some moral quandary if he were. He was a great man, in both good and evil things.

                  Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                  My spin on this is that Israel was punished because the people set David above God. That is: David viewed his victories as the result of his own prowess, rather than God's support/protection. Thus in one part of scripture we read the Devil caused the vexation, and another that God caused the vexation. Simple reconciliation: God gave David his head (to use a horseman's terminology) and David faltered...revealing his vanity...and the vanity of his subjects...
                  "God incited David" sounds substantially more active than "God gave David his head."

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                    Not discussing why God allows sin, but rather why he deterministically causes it to happen.
                    They are both approaching the same basic issue about God and sin.

                    Human autonomy, according to you, that monkey does not exist.
                    Indeed. And the Bible doesn't encourage men to value it. So I find it hard to say that it's the explanation for the problem of evil.

                    If we cannot understand how God thinks, then your basis for denying free will goes out the window.
                    My basis for denying libertarian free will is that I do not find it in Scripture.

                    The reality of the situation is that we don't understand how God thinks or why He does all the things He does, so we just have to go with what He has said in Scripture that He has done, which includes inciting David to take a wicked census (2 Sam 24) and then sending a plague as punishment.
                    Can you show me the scriptures where God incites David to take a census,
                    As I said, it's in 2 Samuel 24.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                      My spin on this is that Israel was punished because the people set David above God. That is: David viewed his victories as the result of his own prowess, rather than God's support/protection. Thus in one part of scripture we read the Devil caused the vexation, and another that God caused the vexation. Simple reconciliation: God gave David his head (to use a horseman's terminology) and David faltered...revealing his vanity...and the vanity of his subjects...
                      I just reread 2 Sam 23 & 24. Trying to understand why God was so angry with Israel, the scriptures apparently do not tell us that. Just in 24 verse 1 God expresses his sore displeasure, not with David, but with Israel. Hard chapters for me to understand...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                        If you are suggesting that the law of Moses was less than holy, then you are incorrect.
                        The NT makes it plain that the Mosaic Ordinances were total rubbish!!! For a start we have the failure of the judges. An invention of Jethro the Midian High Priest (Moses father-in-law). And that is attested adamentently by scripture!!!

                        Were Moses' Ordinances aimed at holiness? That's a different question. But the obvious Biblical fact is they were a huge failure!!! Largely ignored from the time of Joshua until the intervention of Ezra. What else could you expect from a man who was an absolute failure himself (hence his prohibition from entering the promised land) and had so little respect for God's commandments that he smashed them to pieces and implemented his own Taliban type will!!!!

                        Do you well to read what scripture actually tells us rather that parrot Sunday school fantasies and platitudes...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                          I don't share your view that David was "the most despicable person," nor would that pose some moral quandary if he were. He was a great man, in both good and evil things.
                          I can't recollect from scripture a single good thing that David might have done, apart from causing the riddance of Saul.

                          Originally posted by RBerman View Post
                          "God incited David" sounds substantially more active than "God gave David his head."
                          Possibly. However, if God "incited David" then God put David to the test, which is usually considered Satan's jurisdiction (eg: the Book of Job). From a NT perspective, we have the Parakletos, a position at first held by Christ who promised that he and his Father would send another Parakltos (the Holy Spirit) to defend us...Given such, it seems we have some form of conflict. Either God is impartial or he is not! Possibly he gives preference to the Parakletos or he sides with Satan...

                          Imu, under USA law there is a thing called the Miranda defense, where if you are set up you can't be tried...So to my mind for God to have incited David, David was setup and God is found corrupt...not to mention neither omnipotent nor omniscient nor prescient...
                          Last edited by apostoli; 03-08-2014, 01:47 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                            I just reread 2 Sam 23 & 24. Trying to understand why God was so angry with Israel, the scriptures apparently do not tell us that. Just in 24 verse 1 God expresses his sore displeasure, not with David, but with Israel. Hard chapters for me to understand...
                            When dealing with David there are a multitude of scriptures that make comprehension difficult, unless we read beyond a verse and take in the whole picture. Various commentators suggest that David was just a regional warlord with little influence within Palestine. In fact there is little evidence that he and his kingdom even existed. If so, what is scripture really revealing to us? Despite YHWH's promises his kingdom fell apart very quickly, and ultimately his lineage was cursed by God so that the kingdom was obliterated...

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by dacristoy View Post
                              I just reread 2 Sam 23 & 24. Trying to understand why God was so angry with Israel, the scriptures apparently do not tell us that. Just in 24 verse 1 God expresses his sore displeasure, not with David, but with Israel. Hard chapters for me to understand...
                              It certainly is a shocking passage for modern sensibilities. The ancients attributed everything to the divine will. Modern Westerners, for longstanding cultural reasons going back to the Renaissance at least, hold unbiblical notions about the importance of individual autonomy.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                                I can't recollect from scripture a single good thing that David might have done, apart from causing the riddance of Saul.
                                He wrote a large portion of a book of the Bible. Hebrews 11:32 lists him among those whose faith in God we would do well to emulate.

                                "God incited David" sounds substantially more active than "God gave David his head."
                                Possibly. However, if God "incited David" then God put David to the test, which is usually considered Satan's jurisdiction (eg: the Book of Job). From a NT perspective, we have the Parakletos, a position at first held by Christ who promised that he and his Father would send another Parakltos (the Holy Spirit) to defend us...Given such, it seems we have some form of conflict. Either God is impartial or he is not! Possibly he gives preference to the Parakletos or he sides with Satan... Imu, under USA law there is a thing called the Miranda defense, where if you are set up you can't be tried...So to my mind for God to have incited David, David was setup and God is found corrupt...not to mention neither omnipotent nor omniscient nor prescient...
                                Not just "possibly." Indubitably. Furthermore, (1) I do not use US laws to determine the exegesis of Scripture; (2) the Miranda rights are not about entrapment, but about preserving the value of confessions made by criminal suspects; and (3) even in US law, as has been noted, entrapment only applies to situations in which you were not already predisposed to commit the crime in question, and I don't know how we would go about proving that in David's case, especially if he's such a bad person as you think he is.

                                Comment

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