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Samuel was a legitimate Priest - No he wasn't!

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  • Samuel was a legitimate Priest - No he wasn't!

    First, the Priesthood obviously was a function of men from the tribe of Levi.
    (Though Melchizedek predated the Aaronic Priesthood)
    So, the first argument is - was Samuel a Levite or not.
    Then, though his parents dedicated him to God, was he actually called by God to be a priest?

    I have Biblical scholars I trust on both sides of this issue who disagree.
    One group says, "No, he was an Ephraimite, but he was a prophet, and sometimes the prophets took upon themselves certain aspects of the priesthood".
    Another group says, "Samuel was from the tribe of Levi through his father, but was mentioned as an Ephrathite, just because of the geographical location only, and was a prophet AND a priest".

    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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    • #3
      This is one of those grey areas where people can disagree on. In this case, I'll take it that God wants us to look at what Samuel did and not the label that was assigned to him.
      "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

      "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
        This is one of those grey areas where people can disagree on. In this case, I'll take it that God wants us to look at what Samuel did and not the label that was assigned to him.
        Understood, I'd just like to hear the rationale of anybody who's actually studied this.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • #5
          Actually, Ephrathah is not Ephraim. Rather, it is another name for Bethlehem of Judea, a few miles south of Jerusalem. Samuel was a descendant of Elkanah, son of Jehoram, son of Elihu, who was from Ramathaim-zophim, of the hill-country of Ephraim according to 1 Samuel 1:1.

          The sons of Levi were Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. ... These are the ones who served with their sons: From the sons of the Kohathites were Heman the singer, the son of Joel, the son of Samuel, the son of Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Eliel, the son of Toah, the son of Zuph.... (1 Chr 6:1, 33-34, NASB) The Kohathites were one of the four main groups of Levites.

          This is definitely the same Samuel, son of Elkanah, mentioned in 1 Samuel 1:1, "Now there was a man from Ramathaim-zophim from the hill country of Ephraim, and his name was Elkanah the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephraimite."

          Ramathaim-zophim was a town of the hill-country of Ephraim. But Elkanah was definitely not an Ephraimite. Rather, he was a Levite. one of the four main branches of the sons of Levi. Whether more specifically a descendant of Aaron, that remains to be seen. The Aaronites were a separate branch of the sons of Levi. Possibly there was some intermarrying.

          Heman was a musician and a singer. Also one of the Masters of the Universe.
          heman.jpg
          Last edited by Faber; 03-23-2021, 03:51 PM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Faber View Post
            Actually, Ephrathah is not Ephraim.
            Yes, that's a point made by those...

            Rather, it is another name for Bethlehem of Judea, a few miles south of Jerusalem. Samuel was a descendant of Elkanah, son of Jehoram, son of Elihu, who was from Ramathaim-zophim, of the hill-country of Ephraim according to 1 Samuel 1:1.

            The sons of Levi were Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. ... These are the ones who served with their sons: From the sons of the Kohathites were Heman the singer, the son of Joel, the son of Samuel, the son of Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Eliel, the son of Toah, the son of Zuph.... (1 Chr 6:1, 33-34, NASB) The Kohathites were one of the four main groups of Levites.

            This is definitely the same Samuel, son of Elkanah, mentioned in 1 Samuel 1:1, "Now there was a man from Ramathaim-zophim from the hill country of Ephraim, and his name was Elkanah the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephraimite."

            Ramathaim-zophim was a town of the hill-country of Ephraim. But Elkanah was definitely not an Ephraimite. Rather, he was a Levite. one of the four main branches of the sons of Levi. Whether more specifically a descendant of Aaron, that remains to be seen. The Aaronites were a separate branch of the sons of Levi. Possibly there was some intermarrying.
            So, knowing that he was under the tutelage of Eli, and served since he was -- what, 4 years old, as an assistant -- is there any evidence that he was ever "ordained" a priest?

            And why does this have to be so dad-blamed confusing?

            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
              This is one of those grey areas where people can disagree on. In this case, I'll take it that God wants us to look at what Samuel did and not the label that was assigned to him.
              God seems to have considered him a priest which is good enough for me

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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              • #8
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                God seems to have considered him a priest which is good enough for me
                Yeah, no dispute about that, just curious about the back story. AND, an 8 year old boy asked me this after church, and I kinda stumbled through the answer.
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  Yeah, no dispute about that, just curious about the back story. AND, an 8 year old boy asked me this after church, and I kinda stumbled through the answer.
                  Wait 'til he asks you to harmonize the two genealogies of Jesus, or the details of the various Crucifixion and Resurrection accounts.
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Nationalist.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

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                  • #10
                    That's cool that an 8 year old is getting into the word like that, let alone asking questions like that.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      That's cool that an 8 year old is getting into the word like that, let alone asking questions like that.
                      Yes, sir - I was pretty impressed. I found out after the fact that they had been discussing OT prophets in youth Sunday School the previous hour, and their teacher had mentioned that Samuel was both a prophet and a priest.
                      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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                      • #12
                        Note that "whatever touches the altar shall be holy" (Ex. 29:37), thus the act of laying hold of the horns of the altar (e.g. Joab in 1 Kings 2:28) was probably an act of desperate consecration. So this may have been part of Samuel's induction to service (cf. 1 Sam. 1:11, 28), but that need not mean that he served as a priest!

                        Though Samuel did offer sacrifices (1 Sam. 7:9, 16:2), and see also 1 Sam. 13:9-13, where Saul offered the burnt offering and the peace offering, which presumably Samuel was coming to offer. Note that Abraham offered sacrifices as well (e.g. Gen. 22:13), and Elijah built an altar and prepared a bull on it (1 Kings 18:30-33), So this is not unheard of, for people other than priests to make an offering. And note the following custom in Samuel's time: "When any man was offering a sacrifice..." (1 Sam. 2:13)! Not sure what that means, or if it was sanctioned by the Lord...

                        But I would say that Samuel was allowed, and specially consecrated, so he could offer burnt offerings and peace offerings, but that would not imply that he was a priest. As here, where Samuel seems to be put in a different category:

                        "Moses and Aaron were among His priests,
                        And Samuel was among those who called on His name..." (Ps. 99:6)

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          Note that "whatever touches the altar shall be holy" (Ex. 29:37), thus the act of laying hold of the horns of the altar (e.g. Joab in 1 Kings 2:28) was probably an act of desperate consecration. So this may have been part of Samuel's induction to service (cf. 1 Sam. 1:11, 28), but that need not mean that he served as a priest!

                          Though Samuel did offer sacrifices (1 Sam. 7:9, 16:2), and see also 1 Sam. 13:9-13, where Saul offered the burnt offering and the peace offering, which presumably Samuel was coming to offer. Note that Abraham offered sacrifices as well (e.g. Gen. 22:13), and Elijah built an altar and prepared a bull on it (1 Kings 18:30-33), So this is not unheard of, for people other than priests to make an offering. And note the following custom in Samuel's time: "When any man was offering a sacrifice..." (1 Sam. 2:13)! Not sure what that means, or if it was sanctioned by the Lord...

                          But I would say that Samuel was allowed, and specially consecrated, so he could offer burnt offerings and peace offerings, but that would not imply that he was a priest. As here, where Samuel seems to be put in a different category:

                          "Moses and Aaron were among His priests,
                          And Samuel was among those who called on His name..." (Ps. 99:6)

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          Thanks, Lee
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            So, knowing that he was under the tutelage of Eli, and served since he was -- what, 4 years old, as an assistant -- is there any evidence that he was ever "ordained" a priest?
                            And why does this have to be so dad-blamed confusing?
                            I've been thinking about your last sentence and finally pushed myself to respond.

                            I've found the Bible to be a minimalist document. God only provided the information we need and not necessarily the information we want. For example, I would like to have more on Jesus's teachings between His Resurrection and His Ascension.

                            So then I fall back on what is the purpose of the Bible. Mainly to my mind it is to introduce us to God and explain how we are in relationship to Him and then with each other. As we have personal experiences with God, we use the standard of the Bible to confirm that it really was of God or it was a deception. So as we read and study the Bible, we should really be increasing our knowledge of God and not so much our knowledge of the Bible.

                            So to answer your question about why this is so "dad-blamed confusing?" I would say the question about is Samuel a priest is not really relevant to the purpose of the Bible. I mean how does the answer increase my knowledge of God? It really doesn't and think that's why God in writing the Bible didn't provide an answer.

                            But you could argue that this makes God the author of confusion which He is not. The answer seems to be on the line of this question focuses more on Bible-knowledge and less on God-knowledge. So if your struggling with a question like this, maybe ask yourself if this is allowing you to be distracting from pursuing God? Personally on threads like this, I may state my opinion but I'm not going to get heavily involved in any discussion.

                            I hope this helps.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post

                              I've been thinking about your last sentence and finally pushed myself to respond.

                              I've found the Bible to be a minimalist document. God only provided the information we need and not necessarily the information we want. For example, I would like to have more on Jesus's teachings between His Resurrection and His Ascension.

                              So then I fall back on what is the purpose of the Bible. Mainly to my mind it is to introduce us to God and explain how we are in relationship to Him and then with each other. As we have personal experiences with God, we use the standard of the Bible to confirm that it really was of God or it was a deception. So as we read and study the Bible, we should really be increasing our knowledge of God and not so much our knowledge of the Bible.

                              So to answer your question about why this is so "dad-blamed confusing?" I would say the question about is Samuel a priest is not really relevant to the purpose of the Bible. I mean how does the answer increase my knowledge of God? It really doesn't and think that's why God in writing the Bible didn't provide an answer.

                              But you could argue that this makes God the author of confusion which He is not. The answer seems to be on the line of this question focuses more on Bible-knowledge and less on God-knowledge. So if your struggling with a question like this, maybe ask yourself if this is allowing you to be distracting from pursuing God? Personally on threads like this, I may state my opinion but I'm not going to get heavily involved in any discussion.

                              I hope this helps.
                              Well, we're closer on this than you may think. I am a strong believer in the concept that the Bible doesn't tell us everything we WANT to know, but it certainly tells us everything we NEED to know.

                              God, however, created us with a sense of curiosity, and I don't see a problem exercising that, within reason. This is simply something that a 12 year old boy asked me, and I didn't want to give him a bad answer. Plus, it made me think.
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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