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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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What is the Gospel?

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  • [QUOTE=tabibito;n1304280]
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Nothing in what I said could possibly have led to that conclusion.
    The real teaching is that, ultimately, God decides when the time is right. If there is good reason for delay, there will be a delay. Which CP alluded to earlier.
    Nothing in what I said could possibly have led to that conclusion, that I said the Holy Spirit is immediately given.
    People don't necessarily receive the Holy Spirit just because they have witnessed a miracle, or even many miracles. There is no correlation between suffering and the receipt of the Holy Spirit, though people can receive the Holy Spirit while they are suffering, and often suffer afterwards as a result. Being rescued is a result of grace, the conduit (the thing that makes reception of grace possible) is faith (not belief, but commitment.) as in keeping faith, or acting in good faith.
    Where do you get the idea that I claimed that "People receive the Holy Spirit just because they have witnessed a miracle?" I said the experience of receiving the Holy Spirit is the same as witnessing miracles, seeing suffering and rescues. Shown in the cases of Abraham, Israel and Christ. Their experiences of the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit. Whilst Jesus and Abraham learned from the suffering, only Caleb succeeded amongst the Israelites. Can you understand that? It's all there, in the text. Why can't you see?

    Heb 5
    8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

    ​​​​​The rest of your post exhibits the same miscomprehension and misstatements of my views! You are indulging in logical fallacies, creating strawmen.
    Last edited by footwasher; 09-15-2021, 03:30 PM.

    Comment


    • Nothing in what I said could possibly have led to that conclusion, that I said the Holy Spirit is immediately given.
      Then why did you argue against me when I said that the Holy Spirit is not always given immediately?
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        Then why did you argue against me when I said that the Holy Spirit is not always given immediately?
        Where did I do that?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

          Where did I do that?
          Your Post 113/ Gal 3 says the Holy Spirit is received on hearing and believing.
          And 119/ I've never met anyone who didn't believe the Holy Spirit is received when/by/on hearing and believing.

          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            Your Post 113/ Gal 3 says the Holy Spirit is received on hearing and believing.
            And 119/ I've never met anyone who didn't believe the Holy Spirit is received when/by/on hearing and believing.
            I've finally recovered from my shock.

            How does what I said there convey that I said the Holy Spirit is received immediately?

            The only information conveyed there is that the cause of receiving the Holy Spirit is hearing and believing. It could be immediately, or it could take time. The reason the Apostles layed hands on believers was because they had identified those believers as those who has genuinely accepted the Gospel. They wanted the process to start immediately. It's difficult to wait for the Holy Spirit to lead you into the wilderness. The whole methodology had become optimized. That's why Jesus said it would be better if He went to the Father, because then, the Holy Spirit would be sent.

            You know, if you entered the Kingdom, the discussion would be much easier. But first, you have to get past the stage of receiving the Holy Spirit. Which in turn is by hearing and believing the correct Gospel.

            Comment


            • There's a good thread just starting in this Facebook group about how to study the Bible:

              https://m.facebook.com/groups/479453...6901694183283/

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                Those of us who "get it" share it.
                Those who don't endlessly argue what it is.
                If you have nothing to explain about the gospel then that is not the true gospel.

                If you have nothing to argue about the gospel, then that is not the true gospel.

                You note it yourself, "GET IT", so then you yourself imply that the gospel IS NOT simply declaring something.

                Peter said to the words of God given to Paul:

                15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


                Paul himself, speaking of his preaching of Jesus, said,


                6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


                Those who initially hear the gospel are ignorant, and so those who are chosen preachers preaches to enlighten the hearers. Sure the elect would argue, for to give reason is to argue the verity of our position. But to simply say you "get it" while the others don't is plain mockery to our duty as preachers of the word of God.

                And whether a person be just contending or a blatant liar, it would not excuse us not to defend what is the truth of the word of God that is given us.

                In the end, both the contenders and the defenders, will be judged of God by the wisdom of the words they say, not of what they think they are.

                God bless,
                FarEastBird
                ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                Comment


                • Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                  If you have nothing to explain about the gospel then that is not the true gospel.
                  I've been sharing the gospel for over 60 years, Junior, and I'll be happy to answer to the Lord for my witness.

                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                    I've been sharing the gospel for over 60 years, Junior, and I'll be happy to answer to the Lord for my witness.
                    But what about the advice to be careful? FEB is asking us to review our understanding, so shouldn't we give him a hearing? It's only cricket, uh fair, if you know what I mean. Else we are standing on dogmatics, like the Taliban. Besides, we haven't been very good with our explanations. Mebbe he has a very robust view. Just, mebbe...

                    Do you know that your version of the Gospel is contaminated by Platonistic dualism?

                    The New Testament Doesn’t Say What Most People Think It Does About Heaven

                    N.T.Wright

                    Quote
                    One of the central stories of the Bible, many people believe, is that there is a heaven and an earth and that human souls have been exiled from heaven and are serving out time here on earth until they can return. Indeed, for most modern Christians, the idea of “going to heaven when you die” is not simply one belief among others, but the one that seems to give a point to it all.

                    But the people who believed in that kind of “heaven” when the New Testament was written were not the early Christians. They were the “Middle Platonists” — people like Plutarch (a younger contemporary of St Paul who was a philosopher, biographer, essayist and pagan priest in Delphi). To understand what the first followers of Jesus believed about what happens after death, we need to read the New Testament in its own world — the world of Jewish hope, of Roman imperialism and of Greek thought.

                    https://time.com/5743505/new-testament-heaven/


                    2 Corinthians 11:4
                    For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily.

                    Galatians 1:7
                    I am amazed how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ.
                    Last edited by footwasher; 09-24-2021, 05:28 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                      But what about the advice to be careful?
                      You should heed it.

                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                        You should heed it.
                        We do, but you object to it. If you feel it is endless arguing, then deliver the killer blow. Come out with a definitive counter argument that settles the matter, that leaves the poser silent, makes him go away, without being able to answer back.

                        Like I said, the performance of the participants on this thread so far can hardly be called stellar, showing they don't have the Holy Spirit:

                        Acts 19
                        14Now there were seven sons of [g]Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, doing this. 15But the evil spirit responded and said to them, “I recognize Jesus, and I know of Paul, but who are you?”16And the man in whom was the evil spirit, pounced on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
                        Last edited by footwasher; 09-24-2021, 11:42 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                          We do, but you object to it. If you feel it is endless arguing, then deliver the killer blow. Come out with a definitive counter argument that settles the matter, that leaves the poser silent, makes him go away, without being able to answer back.
                          I'll continue telling people about Jesus - you boys can continue arguing about what that means. After all, when all is said and done, there's usually a lot more said than done.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            I'll continue telling people about Jesus - you boys can continue arguing about what that means. After all, when all is said and done, there's usually a lot more said than done.
                            Like I said, you have no clue what receiving the Holy Spirit means. Proved by your silence on the matter.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                              Like I said, you have no clue what receiving the Holy Spirit means. Proved by your silence on the matter.
                              Scripture Verse: Matthew 7

                              1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

                              © Copyright Original Source


                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Why is it that those who are so quick to stridently claim their own spiritual superiority are the first to scream for wood, matches, and petrol when they meet a saint?
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                                Comment

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