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While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
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Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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The question could be like this:
You claim that receiving the Holy Spirit is described as being put into dangerous situations and then being rescued. How did that happen in Abraham's case.
Answer
God caused a famine which forced Abraham to seek shelter in Egypt (like Israel!). Then when Pharaoh became a threat to him, He rescued him through a supernatural act, the finger of God (like Israel!). Abraham realised that when these incidents happened, God's power was displayed, and people had to acknowledge God's presence with the believer (like Pharaoh, and Rahab, and Nicodemus!). Entering the Garden/Promised Land/Kingdom was how creation could be subdued, because that's where union with God was made possible.
John 12 Contemporary English Version
32And when I am lifted up from the earth, it will cause people to want to come to God.Last edited by footwasher; 09-14-2021, 01:53 PM.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
Where did you get that? What does being one of the Twelve have to do with what Jesus was saying was the official/ definitive way of getting the Holy Spirit?
You are not getting the meaning of my post. I showed you where Jesus is talking about a future event. Obviously, no one was having the Holy Spirit dwelling with them at the point the words were spoken, even when they were sent out to preach the Gospel. Would you agree to that?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by footwasher View PostThe question could be like this:
You claim that receiving the Holy Spirit is described as being put into dangerous situations and then being rescued. How did that happen in Abraham's case.
Answer God caused a famine which forced Abraham to seek shelter in Egypt (like Israel!). Then when Pharaoh became a threat to him, He rescued him through a supernatural act, the finger of God (like Israel!). Abraham realised that when these incidents happened, God's power was displayed, and people had to acknowledge God (like Pharaoh, and Rahab, and Nicodemus!).
John 12 Contemporary English Version
32And when I am lifted up from the earth, it will cause people to want to come to God.
That is NOT how to study the Word.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Wait... I claim that?
I'm probably going to regret this, but I'll ask anyway.... how does THAT "describe definitively" "the receiving the Holy Spirit"?
And why so much "version shopping"? Usually that happens because somebody has a particular narrative, and chooses the versions of the Bible for each particular verse that best fits their narrative.
That is NOT how to study the Word.
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
- 1 like
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostI think that is a hypothetical "you."
Text shopping is a time honoured tradition. And when it fails, one makes up one's own definitions for the Koine Greek words.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostWhat makes it necessary for the Holy Spirit to be dwelling with a person for him to be present when a person is preaching? Do you think that these people, authorised by Jesus, were simply casting out demons etc. by their own power?
This is one of the reasons I think footwasher is "compartmentalizing" the Trinity.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
What makes it necessary for the Holy Spirit to be dwelling with a person for him to be present when a person is preaching? Do you think that these people, authorised by Jesus, were simply casting out demons etc. by their own power?
Would you agree that this is the experience of being shown that God can save from all situations, and just simply the phenomena of the Holy Spirit being given to the person?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Wait... I claim that?
I'm probably going to regret this, but I'll ask anyway.... how does THAT "describe definitively" "the receiving the Holy Spirit"?
And why so much "version shopping"? Usually that happens because somebody has a particular narrative, and chooses the versions of the Bible for each particular verse that best fits their narrative.
That is NOT how to study the Word.
So really, a good way of studying Scripture is by using tools that display the various versions side by side.
Finally, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I get better results than you do. Unless you prove otherwise, if you show my statement is incorrect.
Gal 3 is the best passage to look to because it has all the important elements of the pattern seem through Scripture, actually interprets what happens in the experience called 'receiving the Holy Spirit',:
1. God gives experiences of suffering
2. God performs miracles in rescuing from the suffering
3. Believers are expected to learn obedience from suffering, like Abraham, Caleb and Christ.
Heb 5
8Although Jesus was the Son [of God], he learned to be obedient through his sufferingsLast edited by footwasher; 09-14-2021, 04:11 PM.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Yeah, Jesus (one of the Persons of the Trinity) was literally there in the flesh to send them in His Power..... when He (physically) left the planet, He arranged for the Holy Spirit to be a real presence among His people.
This is one of the reasons I think footwasher is "compartmentalizing" the Trinity.
39Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
This is a side issue. Let's concentrate on the what 'receiving the Holy Spirit' means. Do you agree that when people hear the Gospel with faith the Holy Spirit is given?
Would you agree that this is the experience of being shown that God can save from all situations, and just simply the phenomena of the Holy Spirit being given to the person?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by footwasher View PostThe fact that different translators use different choice of words indicates that they have different opinions, in turn because words have such wide semantic range. It's also proven that sometimes translators choose according to their theological leanings. That's why the NETBible is good. They explain why they choose a particular way of translating AND also give the other options in the footnotes.
So really, a good way of studying Scripture is by using tools that display the various versions side by side.
Finally, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I get better results than you do. Unless you prove otherwise, if you show my statement is incorrect.
I can no longer take you seriously.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by footwasher View Post
John 7
39Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
It's also proven that sometimes translators choose according to their theological leanings.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostAnd the New Covenant had not been instituted. Some Old Testament prophets had received the Holy Spirit, right up until the time that Jesus was presented in the temple for circumcision even.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by tabibito View Post
It is not a side issue.
No - Both Paul and Peter encountered groups of believers who had heard the gospel and responded with faith, yet had not received the Holy Spirit. Being baptised into the Spirit is not automatic.
Acts 8
16(For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized [f]in the name of the Lord Jesus.)Last edited by footwasher; 09-14-2021, 05:20 PM.
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