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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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What is the Gospel?

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  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    And less than honest persons take advantage of that to choose the version that agrees most with what they're trying to prove.
    Yeah, it's not the gun that kills, it's the person. Things can be used for both good and bad.

    [QUOTE]
    Unless the purpose of that is to choose the wording that best fits a meaning you wish to impose on that verse. Otherwise, I'm a huge fan of a "parallel Bible".

    The operative word being 'unless'. So if a person uses it properly, sees that there is agreement with several other instances in Scripture, then he is not misusing the method. The bottomline: is there support from the rest of Scripture is what counts. Did Rahab get drawn to God when she saw Israel being rescued from danger? Did Nicodemus get drawn to Christ when he saw Him pick up crosses daily, and get vindicated by God? Engage the argument.





    I can no longer take you seriously.
    Why? You and the Traveller are making good points. You may yet change my views, by proving me wrong!


    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      And the New Covenant had not been instituted. Some Old Testament prophets had received the Holy Spirit, right up until the time that Jesus was presented in the temple for circumcision even.
      Like I said, let's talk about the experience described as 'receiving the Holy Spirit' when the Gospel is heard with faith

      SOMETIMES?!
      Yes, you're right. It's well known they do it most times.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

        Which is why I think he "compartmentalizes" too much. The Holy Spirit was quite evident in the OT and even before the birth of Jesus.
        Like I mentioned to Tabibito,

        Like I said, let's talk about the experience described as 'receiving the Holy Spirit' when the Gospel is heard with faith.
        Besides the text says the Holy Spirit had not yet being given. You claiming it's error?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post
          Like I said, let's talk about the experience described as 'receiving the Holy Spirit' when the Gospel is heard with faith
          That's not what the text says. It's how you're twisting it.

          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

            That's not what the text says. It's how you're twisting it.
            Your argument is with Scripture, not with me. It says they heard the Gospel with faith, and you can see they went through the experience I described. Are you saying Scripture is twisting meaning?

            Hebrews 4
            2For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. a3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

            “So I declared on oath in my anger,

            ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ” b

            Comment


            • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

              Your argument is with Scripture, not with me. It says they heard the Gospel with faith, and you can see they went through the experience I described. Are you saying Scripture is twisting meaning?

              Hebrews 4
              2For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed. a3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,

              “So I declared on oath in my anger,

              ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ” b
              You cite a text that does not mention the Holy Spirit.
              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

              Comment


              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                Your argument is with Scripture, not with me.
                No sir. My argument is with your misapplication of Scripture, and your propensity to attempt to make Scripture say what it does not say.

                My argument is, indeed, with you.

                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  You cite a text that does not mention the Holy Spirit.
                  Gal 3 says the Holy Spirit is received on hearing and believing.

                  Heb 4 says they heard the message when they had the Gospel preached to them.

                  So receiving the Holy Spirit is equal to hearing the message. It's called mapping. Interestingly, the same mapping is found with Abraham. Abraham believed and was led into the desert and exposed to dangers, like Israel. This is equal to the message.

                  Jesus believed and was led into the desert where the message was the same, suffering, from which he learned faithfulness.

                  Heb 5
                  8Although he was a Son, He learned obedience from suffering.

                  Scripture even says Israel drank from the Rock, Christ, which is synechdoche for cross and resurrection, suffering and rescue.

                  Receiving the Holy Spirit, therefore, is having our faith built up, being exposed to suffering and then being rescued, demonstrating God's ability to rescue from all dangers, a very important lesson, because in the Kingdom, the methodology for gathering God's sheep is by picking up crosses, being raised up and drawing those sheep to God, like Rahab and Nicodemus were drawn.

                  If you want to ignore these coincidences, because you feel put down, let's drop the whole thing, because that is not the intention of this exercise. However please reflect on it, and if you recognise it for truth, implement it, to receive the Holy Spirit yourselves, and share it.

                  These thing were written for our edification. Think of the continuity with Adam. Think of the implementation of this in Acts 19, and compare it with the ministry of the Holy Spirit through tongues, in 1 Cor 14, which was to build up the faith of those who received the gift. Think of prophesy, which is the sideways sharing of the gift. Think of all these things.
                  Last edited by footwasher; 09-15-2021, 12:45 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                    No sir. My argument is with your misapplication of Scripture, and your propensity to attempt to make Scripture say what it does not say.

                    My argument is, indeed, with you.
                    So point out the weakness of the view. And share your version of how the Holy Spirit is received, which you say you received, without explaining what that involved, even when asked several times.

                    Comment


                    • Galatians 3 states that the Holy Spirit was received BECAUSE (or as a result of) they believed the gospel. It does not say "upon hearing/receiving." Nothing indicates whether there was a time lapse or an immediate reception of the Holy Spirit. You would have been better to refer to Acts, in the places where reception is in fact immediate - but even then, there remain the events involving Peter and Paul where there were in fact delays.

                      Hebrews 4 does not mention the Holy Spirit.

                      Hebrews 5 does not mention the Holy Spirit.

                      "Receiving the Holy Spirit, therefore, is having our faith built up, being exposed to suffering and then being rescued," At best, that is an outcome or the baptism of fire, not the reception of the Holy Spirit. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is evidenced by empowerment.
                      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                        Galatians 3 states that the Holy Spirit was received BECAUSE (or as a result of) they believed the gospel. It does not say "upon hearing/receiving." Nothing indicates whether there was a time lapse or an immediate reception of the Holy Spirit. You would have been better to refer to Acts, in the places where reception is in fact immediate - but even then, there remain the events involving Peter and Paul where there were in fact delays.

                        Hebrews 4 does not mention the Holy Spirit.

                        Hebrews 5 does not mention the Holy Spirit.

                        "Receiving the Holy Spirit, therefore, is having our faith built up, being exposed to suffering and then being rescued," At best, that is an outcome or the baptism of fire, not the reception of the Holy Spirit. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is evidenced by empowerment.
                        It's interesting that you bring up Gal 3, where Paul equates the receiving of the Holy Spirit with witnessing miracles, which aligns with what I shared.

                        Gal 3
                        2I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by believing what you heard?fn
                        3Are you so foolish? After beginning by the Spirit, are you now finishing by the flesh?
                        4Did you experiencefn so much for nothing ​— ​if in fact it was for nothing?
                        5So then, does God give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law? Or is it by believing what you heard ​— 
                        6just like Abraham who believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness?

                        Seriously, if it's embarassing to be shown your weak position, let's call the whole thing off.

                        You didn't get the mapping in Heb 4, 5, equating suffering and rescue with receiving of the Holy Spirit? You do understand the concept of mapping, right?
                        Last edited by footwasher; 09-15-2021, 01:32 PM.

                        Comment


                        • [QUOTE=footwasher;n1304203]

                          It's interesting that you bring up Gal 3, where Paul equates the receiving of the Holy Spirit with witnessing miracles, which aligns with what I shared.
                          You brought it up in post 113. Paul equates empowerment with receiving the Holy Spirit. Your claim that "Gal 3 says the Holy Spirit is received on hearing and believing" finds no support in the text - it says "because" not "on."

                          Gal 3
                          2I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by believing what you heard?
                          3Are you so foolish? After beginning by the Spirit, are you now finishing by the flesh?
                          4Did you experiencefn so much for nothing ​— ​if in fact it was for nothing?
                          5So then, does God give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law? Or is it by believing what you heard ​— 
                          6just like Abraham who believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness?


                          "Believing" is stated to be a causative factor - "by" does not mean "when."
                          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                            It's interesting that you bring up Gal 3, where Paul equates the receiving of the Holy Spirit with witnessing miracles, which aligns with what I shared.

                            Gal 3
                            2I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by believing what you heard?
                            That funny looking symbol at the end of the sentence is what we call a "question mark". Wanna guess what it signifies?

                            3Are you so foolish?
                            'nuther funny looking symbol

                            After beginning by the Spirit, are you now finishing by the flesh?
                            Man, they just keep on coming!

                            4Did you experiencefn so much for nothing ​— ​if in fact it was for nothing?
                            'nuther one!

                            5So then, [B][I]does God give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law?
                            Man, them thar thangs are all over the place! I wonder what they indicate.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • [QUOTE=tabibito;n1304210]
                              Originally posted by footwasher View Post



                              You brought it up in post 113. Paul equates empowerment with receiving the Holy Spirit. Your claim that "Gal 3 says the Holy Spirit is received on hearing and believing" finds no support in the text - it says "because" not "on."

                              Gal 3
                              2I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by believing what you heard?
                              3Are you so foolish? After beginning by the Spirit, are you now finishing by the flesh?
                              4Did you experiencefn so much for nothing ​— ​if in fact it was for nothing?
                              5So then, does God give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law? Or is it by believing what you heard ​— 
                              6just like Abraham who believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness?


                              "Believing" is stated to be a causative factor - "by" does not mean "when."
                              Incredible. On which planet does 'on' not equate to 'by'? Just switch the two in your passage and see if the meaning remains the same.

                              2I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by believing what you heard?

                              2I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or on believing what you heard?

                              I've never met anyone who didn't believe the Holy Spirit is received when/by/on hearing and believing.

                              Your version of the content and the grammar is incredibly unique.
                              Last edited by footwasher; 09-15-2021, 01:45 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                                That funny looking symbol at the end of the sentence is what we call a "question mark". Wanna guess what it signifies?



                                'nuther funny looking symbol



                                Man, they just keep on coming!



                                'nuther one!



                                Man, them thar thangs are all over the place! I wonder what they indicate.
                                Cow poke are you on meds? What's your point?

                                Comment

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