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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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What is the Gospel?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    Is the receiving the Holy Spirit, as described definitively in Galatians 3, the same experience of learning obedience through suffering?....
    I just don't see the value of pursuing this.

    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #92
      The question could be like this:

      You claim that receiving the Holy Spirit is described as being put into dangerous situations and then being rescued. How did that happen in Abraham's case.

      Answer
      God caused a famine which forced Abraham to seek shelter in Egypt (like Israel!). Then when Pharaoh became a threat to him, He rescued him through a supernatural act, the finger of God (like Israel!). Abraham realised that when these incidents happened, God's power was displayed, and people had to acknowledge God's presence with the believer (like Pharaoh, and Rahab, and Nicodemus!). Entering the Garden/Promised Land/Kingdom was how creation could be subdued, because that's where union with God was made possible.

      John 12 Contemporary English Version
      32And when I am lifted up from the earth, it will cause people to want to come to God.
      Last edited by footwasher; 09-14-2021, 02:53 PM.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by footwasher View Post

        Where did you get that? What does being one of the Twelve have to do with what Jesus was saying was the official/ definitive way of getting the Holy Spirit?

        You are not getting the meaning of my post. I showed you where Jesus is talking about a future event. Obviously, no one was having the Holy Spirit dwelling with them at the point the words were spoken, even when they were sent out to preach the Gospel. Would you agree to that?
        What makes it necessary for the Holy Spirit to be dwelling with a person for him to be present when a person is preaching? Do you think that these people, authorised by Jesus, were simply casting out demons etc. by their own power?
        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by footwasher View Post
          The question could be like this:

          You claim that receiving the Holy Spirit is described as being put into dangerous situations and then being rescued. How did that happen in Abraham's case.
          Wait... I claim that?

          Answer God caused a famine which forced Abraham to seek shelter in Egypt (like Israel!). Then when Pharaoh became a threat to him, He rescued him through a supernatural act, the finger of God (like Israel!). Abraham realised that when these incidents happened, God's power was displayed, and people had to acknowledge God (like Pharaoh, and Rahab, and Nicodemus!).
          I'm probably going to regret this, but I'll ask anyway.... how does THAT "describe definitively" "the receiving the Holy Spirit"?

          John 12 Contemporary English Version
          32And when I am lifted up from the earth, it will cause people to want to come to God.
          And why so much "version shopping"? Usually that happens because somebody has a particular narrative, and chooses the versions of the Bible for each particular verse that best fits their narrative.

          That is NOT how to study the Word.

          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

            Wait... I claim that?
            I think that is a hypothetical "you."



            I'm probably going to regret this, but I'll ask anyway.... how does THAT "describe definitively" "the receiving the Holy Spirit"?




            And why so much "version shopping"? Usually that happens because somebody has a particular narrative, and chooses the versions of the Bible for each particular verse that best fits their narrative.

            That is NOT how to study the Word.
            Text shopping is a time honoured tradition. And when it fails, one makes up one's own definitions for the Koine Greek words.
            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              I think that is a hypothetical "you."
              I figured it had to be, but I must be shopping the wrong version, because it's not the way the question is being posed.



              Text shopping is a time honoured tradition. And when it fails, one makes up one's own definitions for the Koine Greek words.
              On that, I call the Koine Greek word Buhlonee!
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                What makes it necessary for the Holy Spirit to be dwelling with a person for him to be present when a person is preaching? Do you think that these people, authorised by Jesus, were simply casting out demons etc. by their own power?
                Yeah, Jesus (one of the Persons of the Trinity) was literally there in the flesh to send them in His Power..... when He (physically) left the planet, He arranged for the Holy Spirit to be a real presence among His people.

                This is one of the reasons I think footwasher is "compartmentalizing" the Trinity.

                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  What makes it necessary for the Holy Spirit to be dwelling with a person for him to be present when a person is preaching? Do you think that these people, authorised by Jesus, were simply casting out demons etc. by their own power?
                  This is a side issue. Let's concentrate on the what 'receiving the Holy Spirit' means. Do you agree that when people hear the Gospel with faith the Holy Spirit is given?

                  Would you agree that this is the experience of being shown that God can save from all situations, and just simply the phenomena of the Holy Spirit being given to the person?

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                    Wait... I claim that?



                    I'm probably going to regret this, but I'll ask anyway.... how does THAT "describe definitively" "the receiving the Holy Spirit"?



                    And why so much "version shopping"? Usually that happens because somebody has a particular narrative, and chooses the versions of the Bible for each particular verse that best fits their narrative.

                    That is NOT how to study the Word.
                    The fact that different translators use different choice of words indicates that they have different opinions, in turn because words have such wide semantic range. It's also proven that sometimes translators choose according to their theological leanings. That's why the NETBible is good. They explain why they choose a particular way of translating AND also give the other options in the footnotes.

                    So really, a good way of studying Scripture is by using tools that display the various versions side by side.

                    Finally, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I get better results than you do. Unless you prove otherwise, if you show my statement is incorrect.

                    Gal 3 is the best passage to look to because it has all the important elements of the pattern seem through Scripture, actually interprets what happens in the experience called 'receiving the Holy Spirit',:
                    ​​​​
                    1. God gives experiences of suffering
                    2. God performs miracles in rescuing from the suffering
                    3. Believers are expected to learn obedience from suffering, like Abraham, Caleb and Christ.

                    Heb 5
                    8Although Jesus was the Son [of God], he learned to be obedient through his sufferings
                    Last edited by footwasher; 09-14-2021, 05:11 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                      Yeah, Jesus (one of the Persons of the Trinity) was literally there in the flesh to send them in His Power..... when He (physically) left the planet, He arranged for the Holy Spirit to be a real presence among His people.

                      This is one of the reasons I think footwasher is "compartmentalizing" the Trinity.
                      John 7
                      39Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                        This is a side issue. Let's concentrate on the what 'receiving the Holy Spirit' means. Do you agree that when people hear the Gospel with faith the Holy Spirit is given?
                        It is not a side issue.

                        Would you agree that this is the experience of being shown that God can save from all situations, and just simply the phenomena of the Holy Spirit being given to the person?
                        No - Both Paul and Peter encountered groups of believers who had heard the gospel and responded with faith, yet had not received the Holy Spirit. Being baptised into the Spirit is not automatic.
                        1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                          The fact that different translators use different choice of words indicates that they have different opinions, in turn because words have such wide semantic range. It's also proven that sometimes translators choose according to their theological leanings. That's why the NETBible is good. They explain why they choose a particular way of translating AND also give the other options in the footnotes.
                          And less than honest persons take advantage of that to choose the version that agrees most with what they're trying to prove.

                          So really, a good way of studying Scripture is by using tools that display the various versions side by side.
                          Unless the purpose of that is to choose the wording that best fits a meaning you wish to impose on that verse. Otherwise, I'm a huge fan of a "parallel Bible".


                          Finally, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I get better results than you do. Unless you prove otherwise, if you show my statement is incorrect.


                          I can no longer take you seriously.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                            John 7
                            39Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
                            And the New Covenant had not been instituted. Some Old Testament prophets had received the Holy Spirit, right up until the time that Jesus was presented in the temple for circumcision even.

                            It's also proven that sometimes translators choose according to their theological leanings.
                            SOMETIMES?!
                            1Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                              And the New Covenant had not been instituted. Some Old Testament prophets had received the Holy Spirit, right up until the time that Jesus was presented in the temple for circumcision even.
                              Which is why I think he "compartmentalizes" too much. The Holy Spirit was quite evident in the OT and even before the birth of Jesus.

                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                It is not a side issue.



                                No - Both Paul and Peter encountered groups of believers who had heard the gospel and responded with faith, yet had not received the Holy Spirit. Being baptised into the Spirit is not automatic.
                                How do you explain that this is what happened to Abraham, Israel and Christ, on in fulfilling all righteousness, believing? Not receiving the Spirit immediately is no proof that they would not have received the Spirit eventually. Paul and Peter just hastened the process.

                                Acts 8
                                16(For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized [f]in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
                                Last edited by footwasher; 09-14-2021, 06:20 PM.

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