Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

What is the Gospel?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Invitation of the Gospel?by Gilbert BeebeNew Vernon, N. Y., July 15, 1846
    MUCH is said about them, and spirited controversy is often raised in deciding whether they are made to the world indiscriminately or only to the children of God. Few have paused to inquire at the sacred oracle, whether there be invitations of any kind in the gospel or not. If there are invitations in the gospel, where are they? What are they? And unto whom are they addressed? These are questions which naturally enough arise, and which the reader may feel but little doubt that he is able to answer satisfactorily; but before he attempts the task let him duly consider what it is that constitutes an invitation. Take for example any message that God has ever communicated to man, whether in the law or in the gospel, and to make of it an invitation, the compliance with the message must rest entirely on the volition of the person or persons addressed. Nothing beyond the simple issuing of the invitation can depend on the will of him from whom it proceeds. Is this the case in regard to any thing which God has spoken in the gospel? Or has God in any case in the law or in the gospel sent a message concerning the result of which his will has nothing to do? Impossible; for he "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will," and it is God that worketh in his children, both to will and to do according to his good pleasure.
    The difference between a call or command, and an invitation, may be illustrated thus: A man may say to his neighbor, "Will you oblige me with your company," &c. Here it is plain to see that the will of the individual alone is to determine whether the other party shall be gratified. But if a magistrate issues his warrant or summons, and in the name of the people of the state or nation commands the immediate attendance or personal appearance of a person, the will of the summoned person is not consulted, and therefore the message is not an invitation, but a summons with authority. Even the character of a message expressed in the same words takes the form of an invitation or a command, according to the will that governs it. A man may say, Come unto me, all ye that thirst, and I will give you drink. This would be an invitation, because the man supposed to give the invitation has no power to compel a compliance; all the power to determine is with the person addressed. But when God speaks the word, it stands fast; when he commands, it is done. His words are clothed with omnipotent power, as when he commanded, saying, "Let there be light." He did not invite light, for no will but his own was consulted, and he said, Let it be, and it was. Jesus our Lord did not invite Lazarus to come forth from his grave, although the same words, if spoken to a living person and left optional with such person, whether to comply or not, would have been but an invitation; but, spoken as they were by Christ, and addressed to one who had neither power to will nor to do, could imply nothing like invitation.
    When Jesus stood and cried, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink," he no more invited the thirsty, than he invited the light when he said, Let there be light. In the first place there is not a soul on the earth that does or can thirst for the living waters which flow from him, until he quickens it, and makes it thirst, and when made to feel its thirst, and even when the tongue faileth for thirst , it can no more approach the living fountain than it can make a world, until Jesus applies, not the invitation, but the word, "Come unto me." His words are spirit and they are life; and his sheep hear them, and they know his voice, and they follow him; because they have no power or even disposition to resist their Shepherd's voice. The calling of the saints is no where in the scriptures denominated an invitation. he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. If he only invited them they would have to get out themselves, or stay behind. But when he calls, the dead hear his voice (not his invitation,) and they that hear shall live. How would it suit the condition of a poor, lost, helpless soul, one that feels his poverty, inability and impotence, to read the word thus: The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall be invited to live, and they who accept the invitation shall live. And when he inviteth forth his own sheep he goeth before them, provided they accept the invitation. It is perfectly in keeping with every feature of arminianism for workmongers to talk of invitations of the gospel, because the very term implies the willing and the doing power to be in the creature. But it is neither in harmony with the doctrine or experience of the saints of God to so speak of his communications to them as to imply that he has yielded up the government to them; that he has hinged the effect and result of his communications on their will instead of his own will. It is derogatory to his character, it reflects on his wisdom, power, and grace, and the term should be expunged from the vocabulary of Bible Baptists.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
      Invitation of the Gospel?by Gilbert BeebeNew Vernon, N. Y., July 15, 1846
      MUCH is said about them, and spirited controversy is often raised in deciding whether they are made to the world indiscriminately or only to the children of God. Few have paused to inquire at the sacred oracle, whether there be invitations of any kind in the gospel or not. If there are invitations in the gospel, where are they? What are they? And unto whom are they addressed? These are questions which naturally enough arise, and which the reader may feel but little doubt that he is able to answer satisfactorily; but before he attempts the task let him duly consider what it is that constitutes an invitation. Take for example any message that God has ever communicated to man, whether in the law or in the gospel, and to make of it an invitation, the compliance with the message must rest entirely on the volition of the person or persons addressed. Nothing beyond the simple issuing of the invitation can depend on the will of him from whom it proceeds. Is this the case in regard to any thing which God has spoken in the gospel? Or has God in any case in the law or in the gospel sent a message concerning the result of which his will has nothing to do? Impossible; for he "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will," and it is God that worketh in his children, both to will and to do according to his good pleasure.
      The difference between a call or command, and an invitation, may be illustrated thus: A man may say to his neighbor, "Will you oblige me with your company," &c. Here it is plain to see that the will of the individual alone is to determine whether the other party shall be gratified. But if a magistrate issues his warrant or summons, and in the name of the people of the state or nation commands the immediate attendance or personal appearance of a person, the will of the summoned person is not consulted, and therefore the message is not an invitation, but a summons with authority. Even the character of a message expressed in the same words takes the form of an invitation or a command, according to the will that governs it. A man may say, Come unto me, all ye that thirst, and I will give you drink. This would be an invitation, because the man supposed to give the invitation has no power to compel a compliance; all the power to determine is with the person addressed. But when God speaks the word, it stands fast; when he commands, it is done. His words are clothed with omnipotent power, as when he commanded, saying, "Let there be light." He did not invite light, for no will but his own was consulted, and he said, Let it be, and it was. Jesus our Lord did not invite Lazarus to come forth from his grave, although the same words, if spoken to a living person and left optional with such person, whether to comply or not, would have been but an invitation; but, spoken as they were by Christ, and addressed to one who had neither power to will nor to do, could imply nothing like invitation.
      When Jesus stood and cried, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink," he no more invited the thirsty, than he invited the light when he said, Let there be light. In the first place there is not a soul on the earth that does or can thirst for the living waters which flow from him, until he quickens it, and makes it thirst, and when made to feel its thirst, and even when the tongue faileth for thirst , it can no more approach the living fountain than it can make a world, until Jesus applies, not the invitation, but the word, "Come unto me." His words are spirit and they are life; and his sheep hear them, and they know his voice, and they follow him; because they have no power or even disposition to resist their Shepherd's voice. The calling of the saints is no where in the scriptures denominated an invitation. he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. If he only invited them they would have to get out themselves, or stay behind. But when he calls, the dead hear his voice (not his invitation,) and they that hear shall live. How would it suit the condition of a poor, lost, helpless soul, one that feels his poverty, inability and impotence, to read the word thus: The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall be invited to live, and they who accept the invitation shall live. And when he inviteth forth his own sheep he goeth before them, provided they accept the invitation. It is perfectly in keeping with every feature of arminianism for workmongers to talk of invitations of the gospel, because the very term implies the willing and the doing power to be in the creature. But it is neither in harmony with the doctrine or experience of the saints of God to so speak of his communications to them as to imply that he has yielded up the government to them; that he has hinged the effect and result of his communications on their will instead of his own will. It is derogatory to his character, it reflects on his wisdom, power, and grace, and the term should be expunged from the vocabulary of Bible Baptists.
      It was GOD'S WILL that Jerusalem come to Him, but they refused. This is in the Bible:

      Matthew 23.37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

      What is really derogatory, making God look like a monster and a tyrant, is teaching God takes away the free choice of a human being, and forces him or her to accept what God has chosen for him or her. Nowhere in the Bible is this seen.
      Last edited by footwasher; 06-06-2021, 03:10 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
        But when God speaks the word, it stands fast; when he commands, it is done. His words are clothed with omnipotent power, as when he commanded, saying, "Let there be light." He did not invite light, for no will but his own was consulted, and he said, Let it be, and it was. Jesus our Lord did not invite Lazarus to come forth from his grave, although the same words, if spoken to a living person and left optional with such person, whether to comply or not, would have been but an invitation; but, spoken as they were by Christ, and addressed to one who had neither power to will nor to do, could imply nothing like invitation.
        And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

        Comment


        • #19
          Does God Save Sinners Through A False Gospel?by Doug Weaver Recently I was discussing with someone about whether a person could be saved under the preaching of a false gospel. As I have been thinking about this over the past few days several things have been brought to my attention. We know first of all that it is only through the preaching of the Truth, the true gospel that God saves sinners as is clearly set forth in Romans 10:14. This is the means whereby God has chosen to save sinners. The truth about the person and work of Christ must be proclaimed and as He is proclaimed His "sheep hear His voice and follow." All of His sheep are eventually brought under the preaching of the true gospel and the Spirit gives them spiritual life which results in ears to hear and eyes to see Christ.

          So the question remains, "Does God save sinners under the preaching of a false gospel?" Well, we must ask another question which will hopefully give us some direction "Which Christ is being preached?" Does God save His people through the preaching of Mohammed? How about Jim Jones or Joseph Smith? Or maybe Sun Yun Moon? For anyone who understands the Word of God knows that there is only one true Christ who can and will save sinners. (Jn. 14:6)

          Friends, if any christ other than the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible is preached it is no different than hearing a story about Mohammed or some other false prophet in history. The great tragedy of this day is that churches all across this land, using the same Bible as we use, are preaching a different jesus and a different Christ. Churches are filled with people trusting in a false christ. Humanism and the flesh have so corrupted the average church today that it is rare to hear of the True Christ who is sovereign and sovereignly saves those whom He wills to save. After hearing of the christ taught today we must conclude that it is not the same Christ that we see revealed in Scripture. So if the christ that is preached in most churches today is not the revealed Christ of Scripture, it is clear that people making decisions under that kind of christ are hopelessly lost.

          There is only one Christ who saves sinners and that is the Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the all Sovereign Monarch of the universe. It is through the preaching of the Person and work of this Christ that God is pleased to reveal to His lost sheep their utter depravity, God's unconditional election, the irresistible work of the Holy Spirit and the particular, effectual atonement of Christ.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Faber View Post

            And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)
            That's right. When someone has not done something correct, you ask or order them to do it. The engine, the moving force, the solution, is in that person.

            When someone is hurt or sick or in any other way in an incorrect situation, then when you help them, YOU are solving his problem.

            It's very clear in your Scripture that it is the first.

            Comment


            • #21
              Invitation of the Gospel?by Gilbert BeebeNew Vernon, N. Y., July 15, 1846
              MUCH is said about them, and spirited controversy is often raised in deciding whether they are made to the world indiscriminately or only to the children of God. Few have paused to inquire at the sacred oracle, whether there be invitations of any kind in the gospel or not. If there are invitations in the gospel, where are they? What are they? And unto whom are they addressed? These are questions which naturally enough arise, and which the reader may feel but little doubt that he is able to answer satisfactorily; but before he attempts the task let him duly consider what it is that constitutes an invitation. Take for example any message that God has ever communicated to man, whether in the law or in the gospel, and to make of it an invitation, the compliance with the message must rest entirely on the volition of the person or persons addressed. Nothing beyond the simple issuing of the invitation can depend on the will of him from whom it proceeds. Is this the case in regard to any thing which God has spoken in the gospel? Or has God in any case in the law or in the gospel sent a message concerning the result of which his will has nothing to do? Impossible; for he "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will," and it is God that worketh in his children, both to will and to do according to his good pleasure.
              The difference between a call or command, and an invitation, may be illustrated thus: A man may say to his neighbor, "Will you oblige me with your company," &c. Here it is plain to see that the will of the individual alone is to determine whether the other party shall be gratified. But if a magistrate issues his warrant or summons, and in the name of the people of the state or nation commands the immediate attendance or personal appearance of a person, the will of the summoned person is not consulted, and therefore the message is not an invitation, but a summons with authority. Even the character of a message expressed in the same words takes the form of an invitation or a command, according to the will that governs it. A man may say, Come unto me, all ye that thirst, and I will give you drink. This would be an invitation, because the man supposed to give the invitation has no power to compel a compliance; all the power to determine is with the person addressed. But when God speaks the word, it stands fast; when he commands, it is done. His words are clothed with omnipotent power, as when he commanded, saying, "Let there be light." He did not invite light, for no will but his own was consulted, and he said, Let it be, and it was. Jesus our Lord did not invite Lazarus to come forth from his grave, although the same words, if spoken to a living person and left optional with such person, whether to comply or not, would have been but an invitation; but, spoken as they were by Christ, and addressed to one who had neither power to will nor to do, could imply nothing like invitation.
              When Jesus stood and cried, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink," he no more invited the thirsty, than he invited the light when he said, Let there be light. In the first place there is not a soul on the earth that does or can thirst for the living waters which flow from him, until he quickens it, and makes it thirst, and when made to feel its thirst, and even when the tongue faileth for thirst , it can no more approach the living fountain than it can make a world, until Jesus applies, not the invitation, but the word, "Come unto me." His words are spirit and they are life; and his sheep hear them, and they know his voice, and they follow him; because they have no power or even disposition to resist their Shepherd's voice. The calling of the saints is no where in the scriptures denominated an invitation. he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. If he only invited them they would have to get out themselves, or stay behind. But when he calls, the dead hear his voice (not his invitation,) and they that hear shall live. How would it suit the condition of a poor, lost, helpless soul, one that feels his poverty, inability and impotence, to read the word thus: The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall be invited to live, and they who accept the invitation shall live. And when he inviteth forth his own sheep he goeth before them, provided they accept the invitation. It is perfectly in keeping with every feature of arminianism for workmongers to talk of invitations of the gospel, because the very term implies the willing and the doing power to be in the creature. But it is neither in harmony with the doctrine or experience of the saints of God to so speak of his communications to them as to imply that he has yielded up the government to them; that he has hinged the effect and result of his communications on their will instead of his own will. It is derogatory to his character, it reflects on his wisdom, power, and grace, and the term should be expunged from the vocabulary of Bible Baptists.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
                Invitation of the Gospel?by Gilbert BeebeNew Vernon, N. Y., July 15, 1846
                MUCH is said about them, and spirited controversy is often raised in deciding whether they are made to the world indiscriminately or only to the children of God. Few have paused to inquire at the sacred oracle, whether there be invitations of any kind in the gospel or not. If there are invitations in the gospel, where are they? What are they? And unto whom are they addressed? These are questions which naturally enough arise, and which the reader may feel but little doubt that he is able to answer satisfactorily; but before he attempts the task let him duly consider what it is that constitutes an invitation. Take for example any message that God has ever communicated to man, whether in the law or in the gospel, and to make of it an invitation, the compliance with the message must rest entirely on the volition of the person or persons addressed. Nothing beyond the simple issuing of the invitation can depend on the will of him from whom it proceeds. Is this the case in regard to any thing which God has spoken in the gospel? Or has God in any case in the law or in the gospel sent a message concerning the result of which his will has nothing to do? Impossible; for he "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will," and it is God that worketh in his children, both to will and to do according to his good pleasure.
                The difference between a call or command, and an invitation, may be illustrated thus: A man may say to his neighbor, "Will you oblige me with your company," &c. Here it is plain to see that the will of the individual alone is to determine whether the other party shall be gratified. But if a magistrate issues his warrant or summons, and in the name of the people of the state or nation commands the immediate attendance or personal appearance of a person, the will of the summoned person is not consulted, and therefore the message is not an invitation, but a summons with authority. Even the character of a message expressed in the same words takes the form of an invitation or a command, according to the will that governs it. A man may say, Come unto me, all ye that thirst, and I will give you drink. This would be an invitation, because the man supposed to give the invitation has no power to compel a compliance; all the power to determine is with the person addressed. But when God speaks the word, it stands fast; when he commands, it is done. His words are clothed with omnipotent power, as when he commanded, saying, "Let there be light." He did not invite light, for no will but his own was consulted, and he said, Let it be, and it was. Jesus our Lord did not invite Lazarus to come forth from his grave, although the same words, if spoken to a living person and left optional with such person, whether to comply or not, would have been but an invitation; but, spoken as they were by Christ, and addressed to one who had neither power to will nor to do, could imply nothing like invitation.
                When Jesus stood and cried, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink," he no more invited the thirsty, than he invited the light when he said, Let there be light. In the first place there is not a soul on the earth that does or can thirst for the living waters which flow from him, until he quickens it, and makes it thirst, and when made to feel its thirst, and even when the tongue faileth for thirst , it can no more approach the living fountain than it can make a world, until Jesus applies, not the invitation, but the word, "Come unto me." His words are spirit and they are life; and his sheep hear them, and they know his voice, and they follow him; because they have no power or even disposition to resist their Shepherd's voice. The calling of the saints is no where in the scriptures denominated an invitation. he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. If he only invited them they would have to get out themselves, or stay behind. But when he calls, the dead hear his voice (not his invitation,) and they that hear shall live. How would it suit the condition of a poor, lost, helpless soul, one that feels his poverty, inability and impotence, to read the word thus: The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall be invited to live, and they who accept the invitation shall live. And when he inviteth forth his own sheep he goeth before them, provided they accept the invitation. It is perfectly in keeping with every feature of arminianism for workmongers to talk of invitations of the gospel, because the very term implies the willing and the doing power to be in the creature. But it is neither in harmony with the doctrine or experience of the saints of God to so speak of his communications to them as to imply that he has yielded up the government to them; that he has hinged the effect and result of his communications on their will instead of his own will. It is derogatory to his character, it reflects on his wisdom, power, and grace, and the term should be expunged from the vocabulary of Bible Baptists.
                It's interesting that when the call of the Gospel is made, only some obey.


                The Calvinist say only the elect obey.


                Scripture says that those who love the darkness, want to travel on the broad and easy road, disobey.


                The only place in the Bible where it talks about election, choosing without seeing if there is good or bad in the chosen, is when God chooses nations:


                Genesis 25.23And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people will be stronger than the other; And the older will serve the younger.”



                Two nations, Israel and Edom. This is true because Edom served Israel as slaves. Esau never served Jacob. Either Scripture is wrong or Calvinism is wrong. Which is it?

                Everyone knows this. Who is your teacher? You should ask for your money back, because he is giving you out of date information.

                Israel was chosen to be stumbled, so that God could show mercy to Gentiles. Now that Israel has stumbled, God can give her the opportunity to repent, just like Gentiles. This is the justice of God, His fairness.

                Rom 11.32For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.
                Last edited by footwasher; 06-11-2021, 11:54 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I just came away from a discussion where I posted that the Gospel is not the announcement that Jesus had risen from the dead.

                  It's really the announcement that the Kingdom of God had arrived among men, a condition where God's People could perfect the world, like Adam, which God had created incomplete. This condition is described also as the Promised Land, where, like the Garden, believers could manifest God's presence in their lives, the finger of God, and subdue, complete creation, which waits expectantly for this to happen. In other words, the Gospel is the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham.

                  Whatever the good news is, it isn't the announcement that Jesus rose from the dead, because this was not what the Israelites heard:

                  Heb 4.2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who listened with faith

                  The resurrection of Christ was a RESULT of Him being in the Kingdom.

                  Paul makes the point that the resurrection was proof that indeed the Kingdom of God had arrived again, like it had to Moses, who also had God's finger involved in his ministry:

                  Ex 8.19Then the soothsayer priests said to Pharaoh, “This is the finger of God.” But Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

                  Luke 11.20But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
                  Last edited by footwasher; 07-16-2021, 10:53 AM.

                  Comment

                  Related Threads

                  Collapse

                  Topics Statistics Last Post
                  Started by footwasher, 07-18-2021, 12:51 AM
                  11 responses
                  59 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post tabibito  
                  Started by Christianbookworm, 06-13-2021, 06:09 PM
                  7 responses
                  43 views
                  3 likes
                  Last Post Christianbookworm  
                  Started by footwasher, 03-14-2021, 12:55 PM
                  22 responses
                  184 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post footwasher  
                  Started by brightfame52, 02-10-2021, 09:46 AM
                  189 responses
                  800 views
                  2 likes
                  Last Post footwasher  
                  Started by brightfame52, 12-27-2020, 11:50 AM
                  380 responses
                  1,326 views
                  0 likes
                  Last Post footwasher  
                  Working...
                  X