Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

What is the Gospel?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • [QUOTE=tabibito;n1308492]
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post


    In post#199, you claimed:



    I don't recall that you ever asked; all you did was declare what I had said wrong (perhaps I missed something?)

    Opposition:
    Matt 5:10-12; Matt 10:25;
    John 15:20
    2 Cor 11:26 is by no means an experience restricted to Paul - it will be experienced to greater or lesser degree by anyone who serves Christ.
    2 Peter 2:1





    Just a small sample from many that are available.

    You think the Holy Spirit does not bestow the power to overcome your own sin? really?
    Authorisation to become a son of God - that comes from Christ, true enough, but the capacity to achieve it is from the Holy Spirit.
    I did not mention the role of the Holy Spirit as counsellor; my bad.
    I did mention that the Holy Spirit is instrumental in the believer's capacity to purify himself of sin.
    People receive the Holy Spirit after they respond with faith to the preaching of the word. THAT has already been adequately explained, but it is apparently necessary to add that a certain group are explicitly stated to have obeyed the preaching while they were still dead in their sins. After that initial obedience, people will usually be in a position to receive the Holy Spirit.



    Try again. My precepts have been developed from private study of the scriptures themselves. The teachings of men are evaluated in the light of scripture, and accepted or rejected on the basis of whether those teachings reflect what the Bible itself teaches.



    Paul is talking there about the kind of thing that causes the outsider to say, "We have never met before, how do you know me?*" You have never witnessed or experienced such an event.

    [* Of course, it does have a wider range in practice, but he is not writing about the kind of thing that you describe.]
    The opposition and other experiences you mentioned above are the ones experienced after entering the Kingdom.

    Israel heard the same Gospel we did and believed, received the Holy Spirit, but were not opposed for their prophesying: they never received the power to prophesy! They were still idiots, ungifted! Christ gives the gifts to His followers, those in the Kingdom.

    As I said, you need to at least take the first step and believe the correct Gospel, else you will continue to:

    Misunderstand

    Forget

    Misrepresent

    It's going to be a tough slog if you don't take that initial step. How do you expect to make progress even in discussion if you continue to forget what has been already posted? Is your memory beginning to go? How old are you? Do you need prayer?
    Last edited by footwasher; 09-27-2021, 07:37 PM.

    Comment




    • It's going to be a tough slog if you don't take that initial step. How do you expect to make progress even in discussion if you continue to forget what has been already posted? Is your memory beginning to go? How old are you? Do you need prayer?
      Such arrogance does not come from God. Whether a person is right or wrong in his beliefs, you can teach him nothing about the kingdom of God.
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

      Comment


      • The opposition and other experiences you mentioned above are the ones experienced after entering the Kingdom.
        I did say that they are consequences of receiving the Holy Spirit, so your complaint is misdirected. Perhaps you should have given a plain statement of what you were talking about.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Such arrogance does not come from God.
          So Jesus was arrogant with Nicodemus? And Paul with the Ephesians of Acts 19?

          Whether a person is right or wrong in his beliefs, you can teach him nothing about the kingdom of God.
          The problem would be with the listeners.

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          I did say that they are consequences of receiving the Holy Spirit, so your complaint is misdirected. Perhaps you should have given a plain statement of what you were talking about.
          How much plainer can it be?

          I asked: "What is your experience of receiving the Holy Spirit"?

          The actual experience, not the results of the experience. There is a difference. Why do you keep misdirecting, indulge in obfuscation? Just spell it out: what happened when you heard the incorrect version of the Gospel?
          Last edited by footwasher; 09-27-2021, 09:26 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

            So Jesus was arrogant with Nicodemus? And Paul with the Ephesians of Acts 19?
            Neither of them maligned their audience, nor engaged in self aggrandisement. What they had to say to and about false teachers was another matter.

            The problem would be with the listeners.
            I stated that you HAVE nothing. The problem would not be with the hearers - it is with your lack of anything to offer.

            How much plainer can it be?

            I asked: "What is your experience of receiving the Holy Spirit"?
            Maybe your question got buried in all your self promotion.

            The actual experience, not the results of the experience. There is a difference. Why do you keep misdirecting, indulge in obfuscation?
            I see - you want me to describe the experience. I could describe the circumstances of that experience, not that I will, but to describe the experience? Perhaps you could describe your own, so that I know what you are getting at.

            Just spell it out: what happened when you heard the incorrect version of the Gospel?
            I rejected it, obviously - but I didn't hear any false gospels until after I had committed to Christ. Since then I have heard many.
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

            Comment



            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Neither of them maligned their audience, nor engaged in self aggrandisement. What they had to say to and about false teachers was another matter.
              Ho!ho! You must be reading something other than a Bible:

              Jn 3
              9Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things?

              I stated that you HAVE nothing. The problem would not be with the hearers - it is with your lack of anything to offer.
              Yet you commented that my assessment was quite good.

              Maybe your question got buried in all your self promotion.
              What is there to promote, boast about? Nothing. I said we are just sock puppets, empty vessels used for honorable purposes, which again leaked through your understanding or memory. Self promotion is this, which I already stated was sin, and it was noted by God, and was punished:

              Num 20
              9So Moses took the staff from before the LORD, just as He had commanded him; 10and Moses and Aaron summoned the assembly in front of the rock. And he said to them, “Listen now, you rebels; shall we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11Then Moses raised his hand and struck the rock twice with his staff; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their livestock drank. 12But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Since you did not trust in Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, for that reason you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”

              I see - you want me to describe the experience. I could describe the circumstances of that experience, not that I will, but to describe the experience? Perhaps you could describe your own, so that I know what you are getting at.
              I will describe my experience, but I suspect that even then, you will not in turn describe your own, for fear of exposing your lack of the real experience.

              When I heard the correct Gospel, I believed it. Then the Lord put me through some really harrowing experiences, and rescued me from them. This is the experience of receiving the Holy Spirit, the edification received by Abraham, Caleb and the Ephesian believers, for them to learn obedience from suffering, just as Jesus was put through the same training for the same reason.

              From that I realised that this was the Way, God's modus operandi. In the Kingdom, I would have to do this everyday, go though harrowing experiences, pick up the cross every day. Then, when God raised me up, people would be drawn to enquire how I was raised up, how I had God with me, like Nicodemus enquired the same of Jesus, realising that this was how the promise to Abraham, of being a blessing to the world would be fulfilled, expressed.

              Now, to enter the Kingdom would require me to agree to this life style, proved by passing a test: turning from serving the world system to serving God. Abraham and Caleb were both tested, and both passed, qualifying them to enter the Kingdom when it was prepared. Because the text said they never received what was promised, as God had prepared a better destination for all His followers to enter, both from the past, as well as for the future. Also, the text confirms this, by saying Joshua never prepared the Land fit for the Rest of God, else David, led by the Spirit, would never have said that 'there remained a rest to be entered'.

              When I agreed to that lifestyle, which Israel rejected (it was too stressful, it still is, it's no fun facing the possibility of failure in the presence of hostile opposition, and facing the consequences), I was allowed into the Kingdom. Suddenly problems were solved, both physical as well as spiritual. I could walk blind into discussions of difficult topics or situations of crisis with no idea of what to say or do, and the Holy Spirit would tell me what to say, what to do. And even though the outcome would seem to be disastrous, God would rescue!

              So that's my account of receiving the Holy Spirit, and entering the Kingdom. Your turn, but I won't hold my breath. But I'll say one thing. God's sheep recognise His voice. Those who resonate with God's kingdom, have an affinity with His will, will respond righteously. There is no supernatural pressure from God, or from His message: the response is in your hands.

              I rejected it, obviously - but I didn't hear any false gospels until after I had committed to Christ. Since then I have heard many.
              If you had heard the true Gospel, you would not be ungifted like you are now, unable to love, lay down your life for your brother, only to pick it up again, through the finger of God. Sorry to be direct, but that's what Paul noted when he met the 'disciples' in Ephesus.
              Last edited by footwasher; 09-28-2021, 12:30 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post


                Ho!ho! You must be reading something other than a Bible:

                Jn 3
                9Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things?
                The mildest of rebukes. Jesus said worse to the apostles.



                Yet you commented that my assessment was quite good.
                After I commented on some of the deficiencies, I said, "As to the rest ..."



                What is there to promote, boast about? Nothing. I said we are just sock puppets, empty vessels used for honorable purposes, which again leaked through your understanding or memory. Self promotion is this, which I already stated was sin, and it was noted by God, and was punished
                While at the same time pointing out how spiritually deficient anyone else is by comparison with yourself, and how ignorant they are of the meaning of the scriptures by comparison with your own deep insights. Problem with that claim is that you managed to botch the meaning of Paul's comments regarding an outsider coming into the church and being convicted by all. And then your mention of being an empty vessel as if it is something noteworthy rather than being the deplorable state identified by Paul. And "sock puppets ..." really? You have absolutely no idea what the role of the Holy Spirit is.


                And having told me that I failed to answer the question about what receiving the Holy Spirit is, having complained that I spoke only of things that were a consequence of receiving the Holy Spiri, you said
                I asked: "What is your experience of receiving the Holy Spirit"? The actual experience, not the results of the experience. There is a difference.
                and having been asked what your experience is, your reply speaks of the results of the experience, some parts even similar to matters that I had addressed.

                I will describe my experience, but I suspect that even then, you will not in turn describe your own, for fear of exposing your lack of the real experience.
                There is no need to suspect, I have already told you that I won't give a detailed response - it is a matter of having learned where pearls should not be thrown.
                I note that your account makes no mention of cleansing yourself under the aegis of the Holy Spirit, which is a critical factor in the proper response to receiving the Holy Spirit.

                When I heard the correct Gospel, I believed it. Then the Lord put me through some really harrowing experiences, and rescued me from them. This is the experience of receiving the Holy Spirit, the edification received by Abraham, Caleb and the Ephesian believers, for them to learn obedience from suffering, just as Jesus was put through the same training for the same reason.
                From that I realised that this was the Way, God's modus operandi. In the Kingdom, I would have to do this everyday, go though harrowing experiences, pick up the cross every day. Then, when God raised me up, people would be drawn to enquire how I was raised up, how I had God with me, like Nicodemus enquired the same of Jesus, realising that this was how the promise to Abraham, of being a blessing to the world would be fulfilled, expressed.

                Now, to enter the Kingdom would require me to agree to this life style, proved by passing a test: turning from serving the world system to serving God. Abraham and Caleb were both tested, and both passed, qualifying them to enter the Kingdom when it was prepared. Because the text said they never received what was promised, as God had prepared a better destination for all His followers to enter, both from the past, as well as for the future. Also, the text confirms this, by saying Joshua never prepared the Land fit for the Rest of God, else David, led by the Spirit, would never have said that 'there remained a rest to be entered'.

                When I agreed to that lifestyle, which Israel rejected (it was too stressful, it still is, it's no fun facing the possibility of failure in the presence of hostile opposition, and facing the consequences), I was allowed into the Kingdom. Suddenly problems were solved, both physical as well as spiritual. I could walk blind into discussions of difficult topics or situations of crisis with no idea of what to say or do, and the Holy Spirit would tell me what to say, what to do. And even though the outcome would seem to be disastrous, God would rescue!

                So that's my account of receiving the Holy Spirit, and entering the Kingdom. Your turn, but I won't hold my breath. But I'll say one thing. God's sheep recognise His voice. Those who resonate with God's kingdom, have an affinity with His will, will respond righteously. There is no supernatural pressure from God, or from His message: the response is in your hands.
                As I phrased it at the time, "I will follow you no matter the risk and no matter the cost." Yours is hardly a unique commitment.



                If you had heard the true Gospel, you would not be ungifted like you are now, unable to love, lay down your life for your brother, only to pick it up again, through the finger of God. Sorry to be direct, but that's what Paul noted when he met the 'disciples' in Ephesus.
                You have no idea of the life I lead and have led; once again assuming that your spiritual superiority gives you an experience that others have not shared in or known. What you have written (within the parameters that it establishes) only differs from my own experience in fine detail, but sadly for your case, it is an account that a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness, perhaps even a Muslim or Jew might have written. And of course your self appointment to superiority would make it necessary to assume that I could not love {which I do, quite deeply}, or put myself on the line for others {often enough, and with danger more than enough on occasion}.
                Last edited by tabibito; 09-28-2021, 02:57 AM.
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  The mildest of rebukes. Jesus said worse to the apostles.





                  After I commented on some of the deficiencies, I said, "As to the rest ..."





                  While at the same time pointing out how spiritually deficient anyone else is by comparison with yourself, and how ignorant they are of the meaning of the scriptures by comparison with your own deep insights. Problem with that claim is that you managed to botch the meaning of Paul's comments regarding an outsider coming into the church and being convicted by all. And then your mention of being an empty vessel as if it is something noteworthy rather than being the deplorable state identified by Paul. And "sock puppets ..." really? You have absolutely no idea what the role of the Holy Spirit is.


                  And having told me that I failed to answer the question about what receiving the Holy Spirit is, having complained that I spoke only of things that were a consequence of receiving the Holy Spiri, you said

                  and having been asked what your experience is, your reply speaks of the results of the experience, some parts even similar to matters that I had addressed.


                  There is no need to suspect, I have already told you that I won't give a detailed response - it is a matter of having learned where pearls should not be thrown.
                  I note that your account makes no mention of cleansing yourself under the aegis of the Holy Spirit, which is a critical factor in the proper response to receiving the Holy Spirit.



                  As I phrased it at the time, "I will follow you no matter the risk and no matter the cost." Yours is hardly a unique commitment.





                  You have no idea of the life I lead and have led; once again assuming that your spiritual superiority gives you an experience that others have not shared in or known. What you have written (within the parameters that it establishes) only differs from my own experience in fine detail, but sadly for your case, it is an account that a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness, perhaps even a Muslim or Jew might have written. And of course your self appointment to superiority would make it necessary to assume that I could not love {which I do, quite deeply}, or put myself on the line for others {often enough, and with danger more than enough on occasion}.
                  All fine, but you really haven't answered the question. Does your receiving of the Spirit match the Scriptural account, that it is receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Spirit, through learning obedience to the Way by suffering?

                  You are either gathering or scattering. Nothing is gathering, unless it is the Way. Picking up the cross, being lifted up and causing people who witness it to want to have the same enablement, towards gaining treasure that does not rust or perish.

                  John 3.1-8 is very clear about this.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                    All fine, but you really haven't answered the question. Does your receiving of the Spirit match the Scriptural account, that it is receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Spirit, through learning obedience to the Way by suffering?
                    Who ever received the Spirit through learning obedience and by suffering? The Spirit is received as a consequence of an expression of faith in Christ and a heart-felt request that the Spirit might be given. Faith is brought to maturity largely through experience of suffering. Obedience is instilled as much by encouragement as by suffering.

                    You are either gathering or scattering. Nothing is gathering, unless it is the Way. Picking up the cross, being lifted up and causing people who witness it to want to have the same enablement, towards gaining treasure that does not rust or perish.
                    The things that most readily convince people that there is something worthwhile about the Way are the people who demonstrate, by their manner of life and love for each other and their joy in the Christian life, that there is something worthwhile about following the Way. When people witness the difference between followers of the Way of Christ and followers of the way of the world, they have cause to pay attention when the gospel is preached. If there is no observable difference, either the world is already following the Way, or the believers aren't.

                    John 3.1-8 is very clear about this.
                    That pericope does not address these issues; it addresses the issues of entering the kingdom through rebirth and in a very general way barely touches on empowerment.

                    Texts that are relevant:

                    How the Holy Spirit is received - there is more than one process. God decides which is appropriate -

                    Acts 10:34-45. Here the Holy Spirit falls on believers independently of any action by the preacher. This is an important demonstration of what the gospel is and how it can be presented. Note there are no imprecations, no accusations, and no threats. There is a straightforward presentation of the basic information about who Christ was and what he did - and of what Peter had himself witnessed. Most Biblical records show the gospel being preached in the face of hostility - Acts 10 demonstrates an appropriate preaching style when the audience is neutral or favourably disposed. The related passage where Peter recounts this event in Jerusalem provides the one text in the Bible establishing receipt of the Holy Spirit as baptism into the Spirit (Acts 11:12-18).

                    The more customary method of receiving the Holy Spirit is through the laying on of hands following prayer, the preacher praying for the petitioners that they may receive the Holy Spirit. (e.g. Acts 8:14-17, Acts 19:1-6)

                    That is it. Receiving the Holy Spirit is simple and straightforward.
                    Last edited by tabibito; 09-28-2021, 07:48 PM.
                    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      Who ever received the Spirit through learning obedience and by suffering? The Spirit is received as a consequence of an expression of faith in Christ and a heart-felt request that the Spirit might be given. Faith is brought to maturity largely through experience of suffering. Obedience is instilled as much by encouragement as by suffering.
                      Let me rephrase. This:

                      Does your receiving of the Spirit match the Scriptural account, that it is receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Spirit, through learning obedience to the Way by suffering?

                      Should be rephrased as:

                      Does your receiving of the Spirit match the Scriptural account, that it is receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Spirit, that it is learning obedience to the Way by suffering?

                      Heb 5
                      8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

                      The account of Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit is the account of that suffering in the wilderness, and coterminous with what Israel experienced in the Exodus, with different results. As Wright notes, this is a very Jewish theme. Where the first son fails, the second does not. The first Adam fails, the second Adam doesn't. Israel fails, the Israel of God doesn't. Cain/Abel, Saul/David, Esau/Jacob etc.

                      Matt 4
                      1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2And after He had fasted for forty days and forty nights, He [a]then became hungry. 3And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” 4But He answered and said, “It is written: ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”


                      Deut 8
                      2And you shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, in order to humble you, putting you to the test, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

                      ​​​​​​
                      Deuteronomy 8:3
                      He humbled you, and in your hunger He gave you manna to eat, which neither you nor your fathers had known, so that you might understand that man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

                      The things that most readily convince people that there is something worthwhile about the Way are the people who demonstrate, by their manner of life and love for each other and their joy in the Christian life, that there is something worthwhile about following the Way. When people witness the difference between followers of the Way of Christ and followers of the way of the world, they have cause to pay attention when the gospel is preached. If there is no observable difference, either the world is already following the Way, or the believers aren't.
                      Jesus's Way, unencumbered by mawkish sentimentality:

                      John 15
                      13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

                      That pericope does not address these issues; it addresses the issues of entering the kingdom through rebirth and in a very general way barely touches on empowerment.
                      Nicodemus recognised it as God's fulfilling of His promise to Abraham. Jesus explained it as the approaching of the Land amongst men, promised there, and the method of getting in: hear with faith to receive the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, learning obedience from suffering, causing believers to have a different mindset, be born again, change from fearful followers to courageous leaders, as seen in Caleb here:

                      Numbers 14
                      24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.


                      and in the born again Abraham here:

                      Gen 22
                      10And Abraham reached out with his hand and took the knife to [b]slaughter his son. 11But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12He said, “Do not reach out your hand against the boy, and do not do anything to him; for now I know that you [c]fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”

                      Texts that are relevant:

                      How the Holy Spirit is received - there is more than one process. God decides which is appropriate -

                      Acts 10:34-45. Here the Holy Spirit falls on believers independently of any action by the preacher. This is an important demonstration of what the gospel is and how it can be presented. Note there are no imprecations, no accusations, and no threats. There is a straightforward presentation of the basic information about who Christ was and what he did - and of what Peter had himself witnessed.
                      Wrong. The Holy Spirit was received, by Cornelius's household, after the Gospel was shared, similar to Israel's experience of hearing the existence of a land/Kingdom, and conditional entry into it by learning from suffering, being born again, was insisted on:

                      Acts 10
                      44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message.

                      Most Biblical records show the gospel being preached in the face of hostility - Acts 10 demonstrates an appropriate preaching style when the audience is neutral or favourably disposed. The related passage where Peter recounts this event in Jerusalem provides the one text in the Bible establishing receipt of the Holy Spirit as baptism into the Spirit (Acts 11:12-18).
                      Cornelius and his family were baptised into the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, just as Israel was baptised into Moses, his ministry of leading Israel into receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, the learning of obedience through suffering, of which the term 'Christ' is synechedoche, metonymy: Cross and Resurrection.

                      1 Cor 10
                      1I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

                      The more customary method of receiving the Holy Spirit is through the laying on of hands following prayer, the preacher praying for the petitioners that they may receive the Holy Spirit. (e.g. Acts 8:14-17, Acts 19:1-6)
                      The gifted, the state which could not be bought, were given the mandate of forgiving sins, the discretionary powers to hasten the process of the start of the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, with the caution to use those powers with care, not to be too hasty in laying on of hands.

                      That is it. Receiving the Holy Spirit is simple and straightforward.
                      Your struggles and errors prove otherwise.
                      Last edited by footwasher; 09-28-2021, 09:01 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                        Let me rephrase. This:

                        Does your receiving of the Spirit match the Scriptural account, that it is receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Spirit, through learning obedience to the Way by suffering?

                        Should be rephrased as:

                        Does your receiving of the Spirit match the Scriptural account, that it is receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Spirit, that it is learning obedience to the Way by suffering?
                        ったく

                        Helpful it would be if you asked the right question. The process by which the Holy Spirit is received is clearly stated in the Bible - it is simple and straightforward.

                        What you are referring to is the walk according the Way of Christ under the aegis of the Holy Spirit. It is what follows giving reception to the Holy Spirit.

                        2 Peter 1:3-8 provides the basic identification for whether a person has received the Holy Spirit and responded appropriately. That identification is made by the presence and increasing strength of the fruits of the Spirit. I pass that test, but not by an impressive margin.

                        Heb 5
                        8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

                        The account of Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit is the account of that suffering in the wilderness, and coterminous with what Israel experienced in the Exodus, with different results. As Wright notes, this is a very Jewish theme. Where the first son fails, the second does not. The first Adam fails, the second Adam doesn't. Israel fails, the Israel of God doesn't. Cain/Abel, Saul/David, Esau/Jacob etc.
                        And through being rejected and reviled and ... ...
                        You fail to note that before Jesus suffered and learnt obedience, he was already a son. People first receive the Holy Spirit and then are conformed to holiness - provided that they do not fail, but continue to obey.

                        Matt 4
                        1Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2And after He had fasted for forty days and forty nights, He [a]then became hungry. 3And the tempter came and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” 4But He answered and said, “It is written: ‘MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT COMES OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.’”


                        Deut 8
                        2And you shall remember all the way which the LORD your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, in order to humble you, putting you to the test, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

                        ​​​​​​
                        Deuteronomy 8:3
                        He humbled you, and in your hunger He gave you manna to eat, which neither you nor your fathers had known, so that you might understand that man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.
                        And despite being humbled, many still did not respond appropriately. In their case, suffering achieved nothing.


                        Jesus's Way, unencumbered by mawkish sentimentality:

                        John 15
                        13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
                        And what does this claim mean to you? Is it a matter of being willing to die for the sake of a friend, or does it cut deeper? It cuts a lot deeper - in terms of Christianity, it is a matter of relinquishing every thing you have, everything you are, and everything that you want for the sake of Christ. The decision is almost always made long before the state is achieved - and it can't be achieved apart from the aegis of the Holy Spirit.


                        Nicodemus recognised it as God's fulfilling of His promise to Abraham. Jesus explained it as the approaching of the Land amongst men, promised there, and the method of getting in: hear with faith to receive the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, learning obedience from suffering, causing believers to have a different mindset, be born again, change from fearful followers to courageous leaders, as seen in Caleb here:
                        Nothing in the relevant text says as much. Nothing in the text says that Jesus gave any such explanation, and you have failed to mention what Jesus actually did explain.

                        Numbers 14
                        24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.
                        Serving God would seem to be the critical point - though it can be said that serving God even through adversity is included.


                        and in the born again Abraham here:

                        Gen 22
                        10And Abraham reached out with his hand and took the knife to [b]slaughter his son. 11But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 12He said, “Do not reach out your hand against the boy, and do not do anything to him; for now I know that you [c]fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”



                        Wrong. The Holy Spirit was received, by Cornelius's household, after the Gospel was shared, similar to Israel's experience of hearing the existence of a land/Kingdom, and conditional entry into it by learning from suffering, being born again, was insisted on:
                        Again with the "wrong" ... really? Which part of the text in question says that learning from suffering was a condition of entry? True it is in all likelihood only a precis of Peter's address. Also true, Peter would in all likelihood have addressed the matter of suffering and of being opposed. Being born again is a matter of being born of the water and the Spirit - it is not a matter of learning from suffering.

                        Acts 10
                        44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message.



                        Cornelius and his family were baptised into the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, just as Israel was baptised into Moses, his ministry of leading Israel into receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, the learning of obedience through suffering, of which the term 'Christ' is synechedoche, metonymy: Cross and Resurrection.
                        What? Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit. Faith strengthening, suffering, learning obedience, growing in love and knowledge etc and so forth follow after the person is born again.


                        The gifted, the state which could not be bought, were given the mandate of forgiving sins, the discretionary powers to hasten the process of the start of the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, with the caution to use those powers with care, not to be too hasty in laying on of hands.
                        Which says that the power to perform miracles is present, but it is not to be misused.

                        Your struggles and errors prove otherwise.
                        The works that I have done and the ability to not engage in eisegesis declare your assessment false. (And there you have it - a golden opportunity for you to further trumpet your ignorance of what God's truth is.)
                        Last edited by tabibito; 09-28-2021, 10:00 PM.
                        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                        Comment



                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          ったく
                          おだいじに

                          Helpful it would be if you asked the right question. The process by which the Holy Spirit is received is clearly stated in the Bible - it is simple and straightforward.

                          What you are referring to is the walk according the Way of Christ under the aegis of the Holy Spirit. It is what follows giving reception to the Holy Spirit.
                          Wrong. The method is by 'hearing with faith', what Abraham did, demonstrated by leaving the world, coming out of his father's house, what Israel did, by coming out of Egypt, on being promised a different country, Land, where they could dispense milk and honey, great signs, be blessings to the world, for treasure that did not rust and perish, after learning obedience from suffering, that obedience requiring a test before entry.

                          Also, you should accept that communication often fails, problems being present both in the transmitter, as well as the receiver. Good thing we can reiterate the info.

                          2 Peter 1:3-8 provides the basic identification for whether a person has received the Holy Spirit and responded appropriately. That identification is made by the presence and increasing strength of the fruits of the Spirit. I pass that test, but not by an impressive margin.
                          2 Peter 1
                          1To those who have received a faith of the same [b]kind as ours, [c]by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus [d]our Lord, 3for His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us [e]by His own glory and [f]excellence. 4Through [g]these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world on account of lust. 5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral [h]excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they do not make you useless nor unproductive in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9For the one who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choice of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

                          All the above encompassed in the training required to pass the test, conditional to entering the Kingdom. In other words, Peter insists on the need for learning obedience, laying down your lives, before being allowed into Rest.

                          And through being rejected and reviled and ... ...

                          You fail to note that before Jesus suffered and learnt obedience, he was already a son. People first receive the Holy Spirit and then are conformed to holiness - provided that they do not fail, but continue to obey.
                          Jesus did not even need baptism, as noted by John the Baptist, but to follow righteousness, be what Israel wasn't, He Himself submitted to the Way.

                          And despite being humbled, many still did not respond appropriately. In their case, suffering achieved nothing.
                          Yet they all received the Holy Spirit, described as experiencing Cross and Resurrection, drank from the Rock, and the Rock was Christ.

                          And what does this claim mean to you? Is it a matter of being willing to die for the sake of a friend, or does it cut deeper? It cuts a lot deeper - in terms of Christianity, it is a matter of relinquishing every thing you have, everything you are, and everything that you want for the sake of Christ. The decision is almost always made long before the state is achieved - and it can't be achieved apart from the aegis of the Holy Spirit.
                          The Holy Spirit causes the experiences of suffering and rescue to occur. It does not change you. You must change yourself, learn to be obedient from its lessons of suffering and rescue, cross and resurrection, like Abraham and Caleb.

                          Nothing in the relevant text says as much.

                          Nothing in the text says that Jesus gave any such explanation, and you have failed to mention what Jesus actually did explain.

                          The approach of the Promised Land amongst men:

                          Luke 11
                          20If I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.

                          The method to get in:

                          John 3
                          3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

                          What Jesus actually explained:

                          John 3
                          9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

                          10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do not understand these things?

                          Whenever the text says that these things were recorded for our guidance, they are always referring to the requirement for being born again, recorded in Gen 22.12 and Num 14.24. Which is why Jesus rebuked Nicodemus, steeped in Torah, for not learning from the repetitious motif seen throughout Scripture: the need to learn obedience from suffering.

                          Serving God would seem to be the critical point - though it can be said that serving God even through adversity is included.

                          Caleb learned obedience through suffering, nothing else.

                          Again with the "wrong" ... really? Which part of the text in question says that learning from suffering was a condition of entry? True it is in all likelihood only a precis of Peter's address. Also true, Peter would in all likelihood have addressed the matter of suffering and of being opposed. Being born again is a matter of being born of the water and the Spirit - it is not a matter of learning from suffering.

                          The instruction of the Cross and Resurrection, to be agreed to, and proved by obedience, to enter Rest:

                          John 3
                          14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.

                          What? Cornelius and his household received the Holy Spirit. Faith strengthening, suffering, learning obedience, growing in love and knowledge etc and so forth follow after the person is born again.

                          The text says tongues strengthens the faith of believers. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit delivered in a better form. It should result in learning obedience:

                          1 Cor 10
                          4The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

                          Here the writer is talking about people who spoke in tongues, but did not so learn that obedience:

                          Heb 6
                          4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

                          7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

                          Which says that the power to perform miracles is present, but it is not to be misused.
                          More in the line of a warning not to commission evangelists who later bail, because their testimony has not been properly examined.

                          The works that I have done and the ability to not engage in eisegesis declare your assessment false. (And there you have it - a golden opportunity for you to further trumpet your ignorance of what God's truth is.)

                          Strange. One would think the writers of the NT engaged in eisegesis all the time. Unless you were Jewish, and understood Jewish exegesis. Because you ignore the fact that midrash is a very common Jewish hermeneutic. You would have gone ballistic if Paul had posted here about Mount Sinai being Hagar, pure eisegesis, by your standards.

                          Quote
                          (3) Drash or Midrash (“search”)—an allegorical or homiletical application of a text. This is a species of eisegesis—reading one’s own thoughts into the text—as opposed to exegesis, which is extracting from the text what it actually says. The implied presupposition is that the words of Scripture can legitimately become grist for the mill of human intellect, which God can guide to truths not directly related to the text at all.

                          Quote
                          But in this section, Paul switched from p’shat to a drash drawn from Abraham’s life. Although Abram believed that God would fulfill the covenant, he decided that God needed help. So Abram went into Hagar, who conceived and gave birth to Ishmael. Much later, Sarah miraculously conceived and gave birth to Isaac. Paul saw a parallel, in these events, between those who seek justification by human effort and those who trust God alone for their salvation. On the one hand, he showed the allegorical correspondence of Flesh-Hagar-Slave. On the other hand, he showed the correspondence of Promise-Sarah-Freedom. By way of the allegory, Paul asked the Galatians, “Whose son are you? Whose son do you want to be?”

                          https://bible.org/article/hints-alle...ent-quotes-old


                          Last edited by footwasher; 09-29-2021, 12:13 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post
                            What is the Gospel?

                            John Piper says:

                            Quote
                            The gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for our sins and rose again, eternally triumphant over his enemies, so that there is now no condemnation for those who believe, but only everlasting joy. That’s the gospel.

                            https://www.desiringgod.org/topics/the-gospel#


                            N. T. Wright says:

                            Quote
                            “The gospel is the royal announcement that the crucified and risen Jesus, who died for our sins and rose again according to the Scriptures, has been enthroned as the true Lord of the world. When this gospel is preached, God calls people to salvation, out of sheer grace, leading them to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as the risen Lord.” – Christianity Today, June 2009

                            https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...-wright/%3famp


                            Piper says the announcement that Jesus has become King isn't good news because it means that judgment is about to be made.

                            Quote
                            One of the more peculiar objections that John Piper raises against Wright’s understanding of Paul’s ‘gospel’ is that the announcement that Jesus is Lord ‘is an absolutely terrifying message to a sinner who has spent all his life ignoring or blaspheming the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ’ (Piper, The Future of Justification, 86-87). It is, therefore, not good news at all.

                            https://www.postost.net/2009/07/pipe...ghts-good-news


                            However, in the article about the interview with Wright, Trevin Wax received an answer which says the Gospel is good news because it results in:

                            Quote
                            God’s justice, God’s peace, God’s world is going to be renewed.

                            In other words, we should not confuse what the good news is with what the result of that news is.

                            The good news is a fair and holy king has been enthroned. The result is that good people will finally have the system they deserve, and their good deeds will be rewarded.

                            Who do you think is right?

                            Do you have your own understanding of what the Gospel is?

                            Explain.
                            I think the Gospel is primarily about the Kingdom/Kingship/Reign of God - exactly as Jesus is represented preaching it, and bringing it about. To be specific, Jesus is the human King who reigns and rules in dependence on God the King - as the OT kings of Israel & Judah were meant to. Maybe John 10.30 should be understood of Jesus’ dependent Kingship ?

                            As for all the soteriology, I think that is secondary (though not unimportant, of course).

                            AFAICS, all the effects, acts, offices, and teaching of Jesus can be seen as consequences of His εξουσια, *exousia*, His authority/power. And His status as Son of Man/Universal Davidic Messiah-King seems to be a consequence, or mode, of that. IOW, Jesus is the means and the person through Whom the Kingship of God, and His Rule, and His Reign, is realised on Earth.

                            His Priesthood can be seen as a function of His Kingship, since David and Solomon offered sacrifice, and provided for Divine Worship.

                            His Teaching can be seen as an exhibition of His Kingly Wisdom.

                            A Righteous King saves his people - therefore, so does this King.

                            STM that Psalm 72 was understood by at least two of the Evangelists as referring to Jesus. Psalm 2 certainly was.
                            Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 09-29-2021, 02:06 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post

                              I think the Gospel is primarily about the Kingdom/Kingship/Reign of God - exactly as Jesus is represented preaching it, and bringing it about. To be specific, Jesus is the human King who reigns and rules in dependence on God the King - as the OT kings of Israel & Judah were meant to. Maybe John 10.30 should be understood of Jesus’ dependent Kingship ?

                              As for all the soteriology, I think that is secondary (though not unimportant, of course).

                              AFAICS, all the effects, acts, offices, and teaching of Jesus can be seen as consequences of His εξουσια, *exousia*, His authority/power. And His status as Son of Man/Universal Davidic Messiah-King seems to be a consequence, or mode, of that. IOW, Jesus is the means and the person through Whom the Kingship of God, and His Rule, and His Reign, is realised on Earth.

                              His Priesthood can be seen as a function of His Kingship, since David and Solomon offered sacrifice, and provided for Divine Worship.

                              His Teaching can be seen as an exhibition of His Kingly Wisdom.

                              A Righteous King saves his people - therefore, so does this King.

                              STM that Psalm 72 was understood by at least two of the Evangelists as referring to Jesus. Psalm 2 certainly was.
                              One thing that comes across clearly in the scriptural record - the gospel is something to be obeyed. Just a few verses that are relevant

                              Acts 14:15A and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God
                              Romans 6:17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
                              1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
                              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                              Comment


                              • What Is The Gospel?

                                After all the logic, after all the reasoning, when the smoke blows away and the dust settles we are left finally with this piercing question. We know that, “The gospel is the [only] power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes …” “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” So, what is the content of this gospel and what is the message contained in this name?

                                When the apostle Paul said “we preach Christ crucified”, he did not mean, we’re going to affirm the historical facts surrounding a man named Jesus that died upon a Roman cross. Neither did he mean we’re going to present the theological foundations and the Biblical dogma supporting the idea of a Saviour who died for sinners. Though our gospel is solidly historical, profoundly theological, and consistently Biblical, the message of our gospel is far too personal and powerful to be reduced to a mere proposition. No, we are to proclaim and believe a Jesus who is in all His attributes the anointed One of God. A Jesus who sovereignly secured the salvation of His people by satisfying all the demands of God’s holy law and laying His life down as a Substitute, atoned for the elect of God once and for all.

                                There are those who say “yes, I believe that is the content of the gospel”, yet they refuse to denounce the freewill Arminian gospel they were “saved” under. They are unwilling to say that the content of THE one and only gospel that has the power to save is NOT in the message of the popular jesus. I can only come to one conclusion. They don’t really believe the gospel. Not savingly. The message you believe you were “saved” under is the message you believe the gospel to be. Again I ask you, “What is the gospel?” – Greg Elmquist

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by nico, 10-08-2021, 12:18 PM
                                12 responses
                                107 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post nico
                                by nico
                                 
                                Started by footwasher, 10-03-2021, 07:41 PM
                                0 responses
                                30 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post footwasher  
                                Started by Cow Poke, 09-10-2021, 10:12 AM
                                16 responses
                                96 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post footwasher  
                                Started by footwasher, 07-18-2021, 12:51 AM
                                27 responses
                                144 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by footwasher, 03-14-2021, 12:55 PM
                                244 responses
                                1,105 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post footwasher  
                                Working...
                                X