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What is the Gospel?

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  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    I can't claim credit for the explanation, it was a gift, from the Holy Spirit, in the form of a link!

    Quote
    N. T. Wright observes in Who Was Jesus? [48-9] that Jewish monotheism "was never, in the Jewish literature of the crucial period, an analysis of the inner being of God, a kind of numerical statement about, so to speak, what God was like on the inside." Rather, it was "always a polemical statement directed outwards against the pagan nations." Rabbis of Jesus' time had no difficulty in personifying separate aspects of God's personality i.e., His Wisdom, His Law (Torah), His Presence (Shekinah) and His Word (Memra). This division had the philosophical purpose of "get(ting) around the problem of how to speak appropriately of the one true God who is both beyond the created world and active within it."
    The New Testament does identify the Holy Spirit as God, not as an attribute of God. True there is nothing to indicate the "mechanics" of how he is God, no more than it does for Logos. Wisdom and other characteristics of God are presented as persons in the Old Testament, but outside of poetical works (in which trees and rivers also have human characteristics), I don't know of any Old Testament writings where God's characteristics are given personalities. Wright has written much, without a more definite reference, what he says cannot be evaluated on the basis of this citation.


    Similarly, Brad Young writes:


    Within Judaism, the 'hypostatization' of Wisdom or Torah did not seem to undermine monotheism, since ultimately it was a kind of periphrasis used to circumvent the implication of direct contact between the transcendent God and the creation.

    This concept, Young continues, did not challenge God's "ultimate originality and sovereignty" at all. Hence, the idea of Christianity identifying an actual person in such a way is not problematic for monotheism in any sense. Nor is a trinitarian concept entirely foreign to Judaism. O'Neill [JCO.WD, 94] records the words of the Jewish historian Philo, a contemporary of Jesus, who laid out this exposition upon the three men who came to visit Abraham in Genesis 18:2, and were presumed to be divine figures:


    ...the one in the middle is the Father of the Universe, who in the sacred scriptures is called by his proper name, I am that I am; and the beings on each side are those most ancient powers which are always close to the living God, one of which is called his creative power, and the other his royal power.


    No one would question that Philo was a Jewish monotheist; yet here we have an exposition perfectly compatible with the Trinity: the Father, The Creative Power (the Son, or the Word), and the Royal Power (the Holy Spirit).

    http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.php
    Yes, the concept of God being more than one identity is present in the Old Testament, but the encounter with Abraham is not my "go to" text. The Old Testament does not give enough detail to determine whether "more than one identity" constitutes Triune or some other number, or Modal existence.


    Another gift, explaining that the purification is by the removal of the High Priest, leading to His jurisdiction being ended. If the President passed an ordinance that not wearing masks is a prosecutable offense, and if then he does not stand for re-election, the law disappears! Where there is no law, there is no transgression! Christ didn't stand for re-election!
    The old law does not "disappear," it is supplanted by a new law, which constitutes the provisions of a new covenant, and the new covenant is not without its own provisions. Some of those provisions are the same as those that prevailed under the old covenant. Under the New Covenant, there IS law, and therefore there CAN BE transgression.

    We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it.

    https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/
    Yes. And at the individual level, the individual must do it - what has been provided is the ability to achieve.

    It would be hubris to state that this is the definitive explanation, but since the credit goes to the Holy Spirit, I am not afraid to say this is perfect for what we need to know for our situation, so all glory to God for His graciousness!
    A prophet or apostle could make such a claim (assuming that it was true), but if you are giving the Holy Spirit the credit for what you got right, you automatically assign him blame for the bits that are deficient.
    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      The New Testament does identify the Holy Spirit as God, not as an attribute of God. True there is nothing to indicate the "mechanics" of how he is God, no more than it does for Logos. Wisdom and other characteristics of God are presented as persons in the Old Testament, but outside of poetical works (in which trees and rivers also have human characteristics), I don't know of any Old Testament writings where God's characteristics are given personalities. Wright has written much, without a more definite reference, what he says cannot be evaluated on the basis of this citation.

      The operative passage regarding views of the Trinity by Old Testament Jews is:


      Quote
      This conception of Wisdom parallels a less significant, general Jewish explanation of how a transcendent God could participate in a temporal creation. The Aramaic Targums resolved this problem by equating God with His Word; thus, in the Targums, Exodus 19:17, rather than saying the people went out to meet God, it says that the people went out to meet the word of God, or Memra.


      This term became a periphrasis for God; whether it could have been reckoned as a separate person, as in Christian Trinitarianism, is a matter of debate. The risk involved with making Wisdom/Word an independent deity was too great for the rabbis to speculate further, but Christians found in the Wisdom tradition an ideal categorical conception within which
      to place the person of Jesus.


      These are abstract constructs, and Old Testament believers never needed to harmonise, take ideas to their logical conclusions, unlike us Christians, who are perfectly willing to hold concepts in tension.


      Yes, the concept of God being more than one identity is present in the Old Testament, but the encounter with Abraham is not my "go to" text. The Old Testament does not give enough detail to determine whether "more than one identity" constitutes Triune or some other number, or Modal existence.
      Again, the 'go to' text is really where the Israelites express their meeting "with God" as being "with His 'memra'".


      The old law does not "disappear," it is supplanted by a new law, which constitutes the provisions of a new covenant, and the new covenant is not without its own provisions. Some of those provisions are the same as those that prevailed under the old covenant. Under the New Covenant, there IS law, and therefore there CAN BE transgression.

      The relationship between God and humanity, both Jew and Gentile in the old administration, is seen as contracter and contractee. Jews had Torah, Gentiles had conscience.


      Under the new adminstration, the relationship is described as suzerain-vassal to the Jews, and patron-client to the Gentiles. This is a very fluid connexion. If a vassal was required by his Suzerain to fight the approaching enemy, fighting would be considered obedience, loyalty. If the Suzerain required him to retreat, preserve precious resources for a future battle, it would also be considered loyalty! So laws aren't in consideration here, but loyalty! That's why the parameters of law are perfect obedience to all the commandments (works) to receive benefits (protection), as instructed by John the Baptist in advising how to escape wrath.


      The parameters of the new administration of grace are hearing with faith (loyalty) to receive benefits (ability to be blessings to creation).


      Yes. And at the individual level, the individual must do it - what has been provided is the ability to achieve.

      A prophet or apostle could make such a claim (assuming that it was true), but if you are giving the Holy Spirit the credit for what you got right, you automatically assign him blame for the bits that are deficient.

      That's why I qualified my statement with the condition that the view presented so far contained sufficiency of revelation for our present situation. The full revelation would be of epic proportions, and its scope would probably require volumes to explain in detail.


      Maybe you, with your predilection for perfection, would be the one called to lead the team required to prepare that compendium of the resources you feel that that revelation calls for.

      Romans 8
      19For the whole of creation is eagerly awaiting the revelation of God's children.

      ;)
      Last edited by footwasher; 09-26-2021, 06:44 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post


        Maybe you, with your predilection for perfection, would be the one called to lead the team required to prepare that compendium of the resources you feel that that revelation calls for.

        There are many who object to taking 1 Peter 4 seriously, and to those who take it seriously in equal measure.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          There are many who object to taking 1 Peter 4 seriously, and to those who take it seriously in equal measure.
          Roger, copy that.

          However, right now you need to hear with faith the message of the Gospel, with faith, loyalty, agree it's true, to receive the Holy Spirit.

          Gal 3
          1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
          Last edited by footwasher; 09-26-2021, 11:54 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

            Roger, copy that.

            However, right now you need to hear with faith the message of the Gospel, with faith, loyalty, agree it's true, to receive the Holy Spirit.

            Gal 3
            1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
            Perhaps you could give some account of the works that you do.
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Perhaps you could give some account of the works that you do.
              If you mean what works can be done after entering the Kingdom, then you can know from Scripture that God sets up situations, as described in Ep 2.10 and Is 45.7, for us to solve, as mentioned in John 9.1-5.

              These are solutions of healing physically troubled people, or explaining puzzling Scripture. Jesus called it picking up crosses daily, attempting difficult tasks, at the risk of depending on God for help!

              The faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit trained Abraham and Caleb to pick up crosses. They realised that this was how God restored the mandate of Adam, to subdue the earth, in turn resulting in wages that would never rust or perish. Adam would attempt a difficult task, God would help, and people would be impressed.

              So when God tested them to see if they got the message, they showed they did. This was important, the test to check if they understood and accepted the Way: the job in the Kingdom required 'picking up crosses'!

              The rest of Israel may or may not have understood, but the experience was too stressful for them. Imagine being asked to face the Amorite army, just to impress others to follow God. They shrank back at risking their lives for the sake of the world. But because Caleb understood and obeyed, he passed the test and was sanctified, set apart for entry into the Kingdom along with believers today. Rahab was impressed by the results of Caleb's entry into the Land, to the extent of stopping of serving the world system, and to start serving God, as a foreshadow of how people would be blessed by God's People after the Cross.

              However, the least in the Kingdom today is greater than those born before the Kingdom was made ready. That's because we have eternal treasure earning life in this life, whilst they have it in the age to come, the rest they entered was only a type, even Joshua enabling only a foreshadowing of the real Rest.

              I have done both types of works, praying for people to be healed as well as praying for people to receive revelation about Scripture. God has always rescued. However, the opportunities God sets up to pray for healing from physical sickness have been less, and sometimes the healing seems to happen over time.

              It seems that the sending of the Holy Spirit is more towards explaining puzzling Scripture in my case. The ministry of healing seems to occur more frequently in places where people need to be challenged not intellectually, but through physical solutions.

              Physical solutions risk the danger of being misunderstood. In John 6 Jesus chides the crowd for following Him because they thought He had come to solve the problem of world hunger! No, He said. He had come to feed bread from heaven, restore the mandate of Adam to God's Family, to do signs that subdued creation!

              John 6
              26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw [h]signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled. 27Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His [i]seal.”
              Last edited by footwasher; 09-27-2021, 05:17 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                If you mean what works can be done after entering the Kingdom, then you can know from Scripture that God sets up situations, as described in Ep 2.10 and Is 45.7, for us to solve, as mentioned in John 9.1-5.

                These are solutions of healing physically troubled people, or explaining puzzling Scripture. Jesus called it picking up crosses daily, attempting difficult tasks, at the risk of depending on God for help!

                The faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit trained Abraham and Caleb to pick up crosses. They realised that this was how God restored the mandate of Adam, to subdue the earth, in turn resulting in wages that would never rust or perish. Adam would attempt a difficult task, God would help, and people would be impressed.

                So when God tested them to see if they got the message, they showed they did. This was important, the test to check if they understood and accepted the Way: the job in the Kingdom required 'picking up crosses'!

                The rest of Israel may or may not have understood, but the experience was too stressful for them. Imagine being asked to face the Amorite army, just to impress others to follow God. They shrank back at risking their lives for the sake of the world. But because Caleb understood and obeyed, he passed the test and was sanctified, set apart for entry into the Kingdom along with believers today. Rahab was impressed by the results of Caleb's entry into the Land, to the extent of stopping of serving the world system, and to start serving God, as a foreshadow of how people would be blessed by God's People after the Cross.

                However, the least in the Kingdom today is greater than those born before the Kingdom was made ready. That's because we have eternal treasure earning life in this life, whilst they have it in the age to come, the rest they entered was only a type, even Joshua enabling only a foreshadowing of the real Rest.

                I have done both types of works, praying for people to be healed as well as praying for people to receive revelation about Scripture. God has always rescued. However, the opportunities God sets up to pray for healing from physical sickness have been less, and sometimes the healing seems to happen over time.

                It seems that the sending of the Holy Spirit is more towards explaining puzzling Scripture in my case. The ministry of healing seems to occur more frequently in places where people need to be challenged not intellectually, but through physical solutions.

                Physical solutions risk the danger of being misunderstood. In John 6 Jesus chides the crowd for following Him because they thought He had come to solve the problem of world hunger! No, He said. He had come to feed bread from heaven, restore the mandate of Adam to God's Family, to do signs that subdued creation!

                John 6
                26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw [h]signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled. 27Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His [i]seal.”
                And yet you have the hide to tell people who have done the like that they do not have the Holy Spirit.
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  And yet you have the hide to tell people who have done the like that they do not have the Holy Spirit.
                  If you mean you were able to solve problems through the finger of God, I'm afraid you didn't do that.

                  To explain this, we need to unpack the situation facing Jesus a little more, to imagine what the problem was. God had created humanity to manifest righteousness, because He takes pleasure at seeing righteousness just like any Gardener takes pleasure in seeing their plants bloom and grow. Adam derailed the plan. Christ came to put the plan back on track. God had created a family, a people, Israel, to be an instrument for putting that plan back on track. All they had to do was see the signs performed by Jesus, and react like Nicodemus and Rahab: be drawn to God, who could give them the same ministry as Jesus, be a blessing to the world and earn treasure in heaven.


                  Of course the disobedience by Israel of the plan led to the sign of Jonah, the rejection of Israel, and the turning to the Gentile nations. In fact, because Israel rejected the plan, Jesus could not preach the Gospel anymore through manifesting signs, through giving bread to the Children. Now, even those not designated as Children would be given bread, on showing faith.


                  Mark 6
                  1Jesus went out from there and *came into [a]His hometown; and His disciples *followed Him. 2And when the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue; and [b]the many listeners were astonished, saying, “Where did this man learn these things, and what is this wisdom that has been given to Him, and such [c]miracles as these performed by His hands? 3Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of [d]James, Joses, Judas, and Simon? And are His sisters not here with us?” And they took offense at Him. 4Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not dishonored except in [e]his hometown and among his own relatives, and in his own household.” 5And He could not do any [f]miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. 6And He was amazed at their unbelief.


                  So we see that the point of Kingdom ministry isn't to just relieve physical problems or solve intellectual puzzles, but to awaken people that humanity was created to have right relationship with God, the success of which would be seen in the world being subdued, others being motivated come back to God, to have the same right relation.


                  Misunderstanding Kingdom ministry, being neglectful in working to understand God's plan, can lead to unfortunate consequences:


                  Matt 7
                  21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [s]miracles?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; LEAVE ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


                  Kingdom ministry is picking up crosses, depending on God to rescue, and prophesying the will of God, that those who witnessed the sign should also enter the Kingdom.


                  We are not here to share, so that believers become puffed up with knowledge. We are here to display the signs, the indicators of those in the Kingdom, to draw people to want the same job.


                  It's like going to college, getting a good job, and coming back home exhibiting the accoutrements of an abundant life, to motivate others to emulate us!


                  So the mistakes to avoid are:


                  Not telling people about the job:


                  Mark 9
                  38John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” 39But Jesus said, “Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.



                  Not telling people how to get the job, who to go to:


                  Num 20
                  9So Moses took the staff from before the LORD, just as He had commanded him; 10and Moses and Aaron summoned the assembly in front of the rock. And he said to them, “Listen now, you rebels; shall we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11Then Moses raised his hand and struck the rock twice with his staff; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their livestock drank.

                  12But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Since you did not trust in Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, for that reason you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”

                  Comment


                  • I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that you're a member of a charismatic church that draws on Calvinism for at least some of its teachings.
                    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that you're a member of a charismatic church that draws on Calvinism for at least some of its teachings.
                      C'mon, let's stick to your claim that you were obedient, doing the will of God, and rebutting my opinion that it was otherwise.

                      Your work should exhibit the signs of the involvement of God.

                      Your work should give glory to God, so that others can follow Him, not you or Moses!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                        C'mon, let's stick to your claim that you were obedient, doing the will of God, and rebutting my opinion that it was otherwise.

                        Your work should exhibit the signs of the involvement of God.

                        Your work should give glory to God, so that others can follow Him, not you or Moses!
                        That happens far more thoroughly than you could possibly believe. But your response indicates that my guess was perhaps not as wild as I thought.
                        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          That happens far more thoroughly than you could possibly believe. But your response indicates that my guess was perhaps not as wild as I thought.
                          But your answers explaining Scriptural ideas were not exhibiting the signs of God being with you. They were pedestrian, humanist, mundane...

                          1 Cor 14
                          24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an [k]outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
                          Last edited by footwasher; 09-27-2021, 08:18 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                            But your answers explaining Scriptural ideas were not exhibiting the signs of God being with you. They were pedestrian, humanist, mundane...
                            The answers were and remain appropriate to the discussion here, and were by no means "humanist."


                            1 Cor 14
                            24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an [k]outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
                            And you have never seen that happen.
                            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              The answers were and remain appropriate to the discussion here, and were by no means "humanist."

                              In post#199, you claimed:

                              Receiving the Holy Spirit results in being opposed by those who love the world, being accused by false brothers, empowerment to overcome sin, and authorisation to become a son of God. That it just a start of the implications of receiving the Holy Spirit.

                              And were unable to show this is what Scripture teaches. Whilst I said receiving the Holy Spirit is receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, and showed how it happened, in the examples of Abraham, Caleb and the believers in Ephesus. You are just perpetuating the wrong understanding of human teachers, regurgitating what you heard from them. The support from Scripture is non existent.


                              And you have never seen that happen.
                              I have, although not often enough to be non-frustrating. The message is heard by people who are in a rut, having heard a different version so many times, it settles and is difficult to dislodge. They also have the problem of ego, unable to accept they might have been mistaken, and have invested so much in their settled view.

                              But that was to be expected. The text says many are called, but only a few are chosen. Jesus said that He doubted He would find faith when He returned.

                              Comment


                              • [QUOTE=footwasher;n1308434]


                                In post#199, you claimed:

                                Receiving the Holy Spirit results in being opposed by those who love the world, being accused by false brothers, empowerment to overcome sin, and authorisation to become a son of God. That it just a start of the implications of receiving the Holy Spirit. And were unable to show this is what Scripture teaches.
                                I don't recall that you ever asked; all you did was declare what I had said wrong (perhaps I missed something?)

                                Opposition:
                                Matt 5:10-12; Matt 10:25;
                                John 15:20
                                2 Cor 11:26 is by no means an experience restricted to Paul - it will be experienced to greater or lesser degree by anyone who serves Christ.
                                2 Peter 2:1
                                Just a small sample from many that are available.

                                You think the Holy Spirit does not bestow the power to overcome your own sin? really?
                                Authorisation to become a son of God - that comes from Christ, true enough, but the capacity to achieve it is from the Holy Spirit.
                                I did not mention the role of the Holy Spirit as counsellor; my bad.
                                I did mention that the Holy Spirit is instrumental in the believer's capacity to purify himself of sin.
                                People receive the Holy Spirit after they respond with faith to the preaching of the word. THAT has already been adequately explained, but it is apparently necessary to add that a certain group are explicitly stated to have obeyed the preaching while they were still dead in their sins. After that initial obedience, people will usually be in a position to receive the Holy Spirit.

                                Whilst I said receiving the Holy Spirit is receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, and showed how it happened, in the examples of Abraham, Caleb and the believers in Ephesus. You are just perpetuating the wrong understanding of human teachers, regurgitating what you heard from them. The support from Scripture is non existent.
                                Try again. My precepts have been developed from private study of the scriptures themselves. The teachings of men are evaluated in the light of scripture, and accepted or rejected on the basis of whether those teachings reflect what the Bible itself teaches.

                                I have, although not often enough to be non-frustrating. The message is heard by people who are in a rut, having heard a different version so many times, it settles and is difficult to dislodge. They also have the problem of ego, unable to accept they might have been mistaken, and have invested so much in their settled view.

                                Paul is talking there about the kind of thing that causes the outsider to say, "We have never met before, how do you know me?*" You have never witnessed or experienced such an event.

                                [* Of course, it does have a wider range in practice, but he is not writing about the kind of thing that you describe.]
                                Last edited by tabibito; 09-27-2021, 05:27 PM.
                                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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