Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

What is the Gospel?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    qed
    Good call. At least you're not a waste of space anymore. Too bad it only takes delusions to drive you away. Just imagine what happens when Truth makes its appearance.
    Be rebuked.


    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

      I've been sharing the gospel for over 60 years, Junior, and I'll be happy to answer to the Lord for my witness.
      I don't believe you've been sharing the gospel at all, you cannot even tell me what the gospel is. A person who knew the gospel would be happy to share it, even if the listener may be a fool.

      And as you said, you share it and then let the Lord do His work. Just don't be offended , nor resist, if the Lord will work in you instead.

      Please do not think that I am only up to making arguments. It is a DUTY for every Christian to correct every false gospel, We do it not to be against the person, but rather we do it because we hope that the person be saved also from his/her errors.

      Wisdom always triumphs.
      ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
      ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
      https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

      Comment


      • Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post

        I don't believe you've been sharing the gospel at all, you cannot even tell me what the gospel is. A person who knew the gospel would be happy to share it, even if the listener may be a fool.

        And as you said, you share it and then let the Lord do His work. Just don't be offended , nor resist, if the Lord will work in you instead.

        Please do not think that I am only up to making arguments. It is a DUTY for every Christian to correct every false gospel, We do it not to be against the person, but rather we do it because we hope that the person be saved also from his/her errors.

        Wisdom always triumphs.
        I don't believe Jesus ever showed willing to meet challenges with acquiescence.
        A show of good faith would be for you to present the gospel as you understand it, and see whether assent or dissent is expressed.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Be rebuked.

          A common problem is when different people read the Bible and reach different conclusions. Both claim to read the same text, both claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit.

          Would you agree that Scripture teaches that the proper test for the right interpretation of Scripture is by using Scripture itself?

          Jer 23
          25“I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsely in My name, saying, ‘I had a dream, I had a dream!’ 26How long? Is there anything in the hearts of the prophets who prophesy falsehood, these prophets of the deceitfulness of their own heart, 27who intend to make My people forget My name by their dreams which they report to one another, just as their fathers forgot My name because of Baal? 28The prophet who has a dream may report his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word truthfully. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the LORD. 29“Is My word not like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?

          1 Cor 3
          10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
          ...

          In other words, your view must pass through the test of fire. Other Scripture must support it.

          So we have two views, your view being:

          Receiving the Holy Spirit results in being opposed by those who love the world, being accused by false brothers, empowerment to overcome sin, and authorisation to become a son of God. That it just a start of the implications of receiving the Holy Spirit.


          One of the other implications of receiving the Holy Spirit is that the recipient gets to preach gospel with actual power.


          And mine being:

          The experience of receiving the Holy Spirit is of receiving training, the faith strengthening ministry of the Spirit, through being given the cross and then being rescued, being subjected to danger and then being saved, like Abraham and Israel, in their rescue from different Pharaohs, and from hunger and thirst.


          We know this is the correct interpretation, because the text says that Israel received the same Gospel in Exodus, but only Caleb profited from the training, became a different person, was transformed from a fearful follower to a courageous leader, was 'born again'.

          Heb 4
          2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also did; but the word [a]they heard did not benefit them, because [b]they were not united with those who listened with faith. 3For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,

          “AS I SWORE IN MY ANGER,

          THEY CERTAINLY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”


          Num 14
          20So the LORD said, “I have forgiven them in accordance with your word; 21however, as I live, [k]all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD. 22Certainly all the people who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who were disrespectful to Me see it. 24But as for My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring him into the land which he [l]entered, and his [m]descendants shall take possession of it.


          1 Cor 10
          1For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and they all passed through the sea; 2and they all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and they all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was [a]Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased; for their dead bodies were spread out in the wilderness.


          God's word is like a fire, a hammer that breaks rocks. My view has passed the test. It looks like yours hasn't. There is no text that says that those who receive the Spirit have:


          1. powerful teaching and

          2. which is resisted by others


          The power comes after entering the Kingdom, through union with God, like Adam who walked with God in the cool of the day in the Garden, and could subdue the world, through that empowerment.

          John 3
          1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to [a]Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [b]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
          Last edited by footwasher; 09-25-2021, 07:53 PM.

          Comment


          • Do I read that correctly?

            Are you saying that receiving the gospel is receiving the Holy Spirit; that the gospel's words are Christ?
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
              Do I read that correctly?

              Are you saying that receiving the gospel is receiving the Holy Spirit; that the gospel's words are Christ?
              Receiving the Holy Spirit is getting your faith strengthened.

              Abraham's faith was strengthened when he saw how Pharaoh was prevented from harming him. Finally when his faith was tested, he passed the test. He was set up for entering the Kingdom.

              Caleb's faith was strengthened when he saw how Pharaoh was prevented from harming him. Finally when his faith was tested, he passed the test. He was set up for entering the Kingdom.

              The believers in Ephesus received edification through tongues:

              1 Cor 14
              4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

              Heb 11
              39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.
              Last edited by footwasher; 09-25-2021, 11:49 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                Receiving the Holy Spirit is getting your faith strengthened.

                Abraham's faith was strengthened when he saw how Pharaoh was prevented from harming him. Finally when his faith was tested, he passed the test. He was set up for entering the Kingdom.

                Caleb's faith was strengthened when he saw how Pharaoh was prevented from harming him. Finally when his faith was tested, he passed the test. He was set up for entering the Kingdom.

                The believers in Ephesus received edification through tongues:

                1 Cor 14
                4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

                Heb 11
                39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.
                None of that answers the questions. Nor does it address the thread's question.
                sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  None of that answers the questions. Nor does it address the thread's question.
                  I clarified what receiving the Holy Spirit is.

                  This is the first step of salvation, fulfillment to be what God created humanity to be: perfected of His Creation.

                  The second step is to enter the Kingdom.

                  The Gospel is the good news that the Kingdom/Garden/Promised Land has been made ready, fixed, repaired after its damage by Adam.

                  Luke 11
                  20If I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.

                  Comment


                  • The gospel is news, tidings, information
                    It has a framework.
                    It is about

                    The kingdom of Heaven
                    Who Christ is
                    Who the Holy Spirit is
                    What they have done.
                    What they still do
                    What is expected of people who hear the gospel.

                    and all of it will be related to the Father.

                    You have made no clear statement of what the gospel might be.

                    Last edited by tabibito; 09-26-2021, 01:28 AM.
                    sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      The gospel is news, tidings, information
                      It has a framework.
                      It is about

                      The kingdom of Heaven
                      Who Christ is
                      Who the Holy Spirit is
                      What they have done.
                      What they still do
                      What is expected of people who hear the gospel.


                      and all of it will be related to the Father.

                      You have made no clear statement of what the gospel might be.
                      The idea is complex. If you are patient, the information will get across. Jesus told the crowd that the Kingdom of God was within reach.

                      It is the situation where humanity can be in right relationship with God, like Adam was, in the Garden. The symptom of a right relationship is the gathering of creation to God, like a wild horse is tamed to be useful to the owner of the land in which the horse roams.

                      The connection between Adam and Abraham is seen in the twin promises to Abraham: he would be a blessing to creation, he would receive a land/country/Kingdom where that would be possible. Else why would God promise land to Abraham after promising him he would be a gatherer of creation into a fruitful relationship with its Owner? Remember, the text says Abraham was unhappy with the country Adam had left to humanity, a country which had stalled in its development.

                      You can see a foreshadowing of the Kingdom in the land of Canaan. Once Caleb entered the Land, Rahab was subdued.

                      Once Jesus entered the Land, Nicodemus and several others of the flock of God were gathered to Him.

                      I think your framing of the questions is not very useful. However, I can address those issues if you want. I just don't want to go off track.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                        The idea is complex. If you are patient, the information will get across. Jesus told the crowd that the Kingdom of God was within reach.

                        It is the situation where humanity can be in right relationship with God, like Adam was, in the Garden. The symptom of a right relationship is the gathering of creation to God, like a wild horse is tamed to be useful to the owner of the land in which the horse roams.

                        The connection between Adam and Abraham is seen in the twin promises to Abraham: he would be a blessing to creation, he would receive a land/country/Kingdom where that would be possible. Else why would God promise land to Abraham after promising him he would be a gatherer of creation into a fruitful relationship with its Owner? Remember, the text says Abraham was unhappy with the country Adam had left to humanity, a country which had stalled in its development.

                        You can see a foreshadowing of the Kingdom in the land of Canaan. Once Caleb entered the Land, Rahab was subdued.

                        Once Jesus entered the Land, Nicodemus and several others of the flock of God were gathered to Him.

                        I think your framing of the questions is not very useful. However, I can address those issues if you want. I just don't want to go off track.
                        The thread is titled "What is the Gospel?" - My post addressed that issue.
                        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          The thread is titled "What is the Gospel?" - My post addressed that issue.
                          It's not uncommon for threads to branch off into related side issues. So these side issues were being addressed. However, there is no obstacle in returning to the original issue.

                          However, again, you are asking for a detailed explanation of the original view. I can tell you the material can fill a volume or two. People have written books, just about the justification aspect of the Gospel

                          ​​​​​I suggest that you discuss a few aspects of the Gospel that you feel are not adequately explained in my view. The first reason is that most of the other material is generally accepted, is the same for all models. A few aspects are different, and can be expanded in detail, in different ways, till you are happy with the communication, and are ready to point out the weaknesses in their framing.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                            The gospel is news, tidings, information
                            It has a framework.
                            It is about

                            The kingdom of Heaven
                            Who Christ is
                            Who the Holy Spirit is
                            What they have done.
                            What they still do
                            What is expected of people who hear the gospel.




                            and all of it will be related to the Father.

                            You have made no clear statement of what the gospel might be.
                            The kingdom of Heaven

                            Is a spiritual state where humanity is in union with God, created to produce righteousness, which God takes pleasure in seeing, just as a Gardener loves to see fruit. It originates as a Garden, then is promised as Land, a farm flowing with milk and honey, and finally evolves into a City in the Book of Revelation, where all expressions of righteousness are manifested, perhaps like a new Silicon Valley, where righteous expressions of moral, cultural and intellectual fruit all thrive.


                            Who Christ is

                            Christ is the Messiah, the One with the mandate from God to bring believers into unity with Him.


                            Who the Holy Spirit is

                            The Holy Spirit is the active power of God.


                            What they have done.

                            Christ has made believers holy, pure so that they can stand in God's presence. The Holy Spirit edifies, builds up the faith of believers, so that when they hear God's call with faith, they can enter the Kingdom.



                            What they still do

                            Christ sits at the right hand of God, advocating for believers, defending their case. The Holy Spirit gives gifts to believers who are in union with God, so that they are able to bring His sheep out, from serving the world to serve Him, like Moses was given gifts, that enabled him to rescue Israel from the grip of Egypt.



                            What is expected of people who hear the gospel.

                            Believe it, the announcement of the availability of the privilege to be blessings to the world, through passing a test, in turn by receiving training from the Holy Spirit, so that they can indeed experience the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit.


                            The Gospel

                            The announcement of the availability of the Kingdom of God, the spiritual state where believers can be blessings to creation, subdue it, bring it into right relationship with Him, the state Adam was in, when he was in the Garden, walking with Him. This state is restored by the cross, where the power of sin was destroyed, enabling believers to be in union with God, because only the pure can stand in His presence. The privilege to be blessings to the world can be received, by receiving the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, benefitting from it, that is, actually becoming faithful, like Caleb, changing from fearful, murmuring followers to courageous, edifying leaders, who face a qualifying test to show their faith, like Abraham and Caleb, and then when they pass, are allowed to enter the Kingdom, union with God, where through the Way, they become blessings to the world, as promised to Abraham.


                            The Way

                            God causes problems, blinded people, darkened Scripture, in advance so that we can solve them and draw people to Him, when they see His presence, his involvement, finger, with the doer:

                            Ep 2
                            10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

                            Is 45
                            7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

                            Jn 9
                            1As Jesus passed by, He saw a man who had been blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” 3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4We must carry out the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

                            Jn 12
                            32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

                            Jn 3
                            1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to [a]Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [b]signs that You do unless God is with him.”
                            Last edited by footwasher; 09-26-2021, 03:37 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Who the Holy Spirit is

                              The Holy Spirit is the active power of God.
                              Just a power, not an entity?

                              What they have done.

                              Christ has made believers holy, pure so that they can stand in God's presence. The Holy Spirit edifies, builds up the faith of believers, so that when they hear God's call with faith, they can enter the Kingdom.
                              Purification is achieved by the believer under the aegis of the Holy Spirit.

                              What is expected of people who hear the gospel.

                              Believe it, the announcement of the availability of the privilege to be blessings to the world, through passing a test, in turn by receiving training from the Holy Spirit, so that they can indeed experience the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit
                              Obedience, love God, and "love one another."


                              As to the rest - yours isn't a bad assessment at all.
                              sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Who the Holy Spirit is
                                Just a power, not an entity?
                                I can't claim credit for the explanation, it was a gift, from the Holy Spirit, in the form of a link!

                                Quote
                                N. T. Wright observes in Who Was Jesus? [48-9] that Jewish monotheism "was never, in the Jewish literature of the crucial period, an analysis of the inner being of God, a kind of numerical statement about, so to speak, what God was like on the inside." Rather, it was "always a polemical statement directed outwards against the pagan nations." Rabbis of Jesus' time had no difficulty in personifying separate aspects of God's personality i.e., His Wisdom, His Law (Torah), His Presence (Shekinah) and His Word (Memra). This division had the philosophical purpose of "get(ting) around the problem of how to speak appropriately of the one true God who is both beyond the created world and active within it."


                                Similarly, Brad Young writes:



                                Within Judaism, the 'hypostatization' of Wisdom or Torah did not seem to undermine monotheism, since ultimately it was a kind of periphrasis used to circumvent the implication of direct contact between the transcendent God and the creation.

                                This concept, Young continues, did not challenge God's "ultimate originality and sovereignty" at all. Hence, the idea of Christianity identifying an actual person in such a way is not problematic for monotheism in any sense. Nor is a trinitarian concept entirely foreign to Judaism. O'Neill [JCO.WD, 94] records the words of the Jewish historian Philo, a contemporary of Jesus, who laid out this exposition upon the three men who came to visit Abraham in Genesis 18:2, and were presumed to be divine figures:


                                ...the one in the middle is the Father of the Universe, who in the sacred scriptures is called by his proper name, I am that I am; and the beings on each side are those most ancient powers which are always close to the living God, one of which is called his creative power, and the other his royal power.


                                No one would question that Philo was a Jewish monotheist; yet here we have an exposition perfectly compatible with the Trinity: the Father, The Creative Power (the Son, or the Word), and the Royal Power (the Holy Spirit).

                                http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/trinitydefense.php


                                What they have done.

                                Purification is achieved by the believer under the aegis of the Holy Spirit.

                                Another gift, explaining that the purification is by the removal of the High Priest, leading to His jurisdiction being ended. If the President passed an ordinance that not wearing masks is a prosecutable offense, and if then he does not stand for re-election, the law disappears! Where there is no law, there is no transgression! Christ didn't stand for re-election!

                                Quote
                                We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).



                                https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/

                                What is expected of people who hear the gospel.

                                Obedience, love God, and "love one another."


                                As to the rest - yours isn't a bad assessment at all.

                                You helped. The Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways. Another gift.


                                John 15
                                Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.


                                Luke 9
                                23Then Jesus said to all of them, "If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me.


                                John 12
                                32And when I am lifted up from the earth, it will cause people to want to come to me.


                                It would be hubris to state that this is the definitive explanation, but since the credit goes to the Holy Spirit, I am not afraid to say this is perfect for what we need to know for our situation, so all glory to God for His graciousness!
                                Last edited by footwasher; 09-26-2021, 04:44 PM.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by nico, 10-08-2021, 12:18 PM
                                12 responses
                                107 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post nico
                                by nico
                                 
                                Started by footwasher, 10-03-2021, 07:41 PM
                                0 responses
                                30 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post footwasher  
                                Started by Cow Poke, 09-10-2021, 10:12 AM
                                16 responses
                                96 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post footwasher  
                                Started by footwasher, 07-18-2021, 12:51 AM
                                27 responses
                                144 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by footwasher, 03-14-2021, 12:55 PM
                                244 responses
                                1,104 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post footwasher  
                                Working...
                                X