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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Not just Israel, even Abraham received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit AFTER believing:

    Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit(E) by the works of the law,(F) or by believing what you heard?(G)3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a]4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles(H) among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?(I)6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c](J)

    In other words, Abraham heard the Gospel, believed, and experienced the Spirit creating a cross, and rescuing him, in the incident of being threatened by King Abhimelech and Pharoah. After seeing the rescues, Abraham understood how he would be a blessing to the world.


    Scripture says God made problems, like sicknesses and difficult puzzles, so that when we solved them, by the finger of God, people would see God was with us:

    Ep 2:10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
    ....

    Isaiah 45:7I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
    …..

    John 9:1Now as Jesus was passing by, He saw a man blind from birth, 2and His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
    ​​​​​​
    3Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him.

    ……..
    John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
    .....

    Luke 11:20But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
    .......

    That's why we have to pick up our crosses every day, so that when we are raised up from the earth, we will draw the world to God, which can only happen if we enter Rest:

    Heb 4:6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying [c]through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

    DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.” 8For if [d]Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

    Only then can we do things like heal sicknesses or explain difficult Scripture, showing the great works of God in solving the problems, in raising us up from the earth, after we pick up the cross.


    So when he was tested for entering the Kingdom, he passed.
    A person must first believe or they would ignore the message. It proves God saves people so they can believe. If a person must choose to believe it is because they lack the salvation experience and must force themselves to gamble that the gospel might be true.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    I heard a form of the gospel many times as a kid. So possibly this corresponds to your beliefs. But my experience aligns with scripture when understood Calvinistically. I didn't know anything about Calvinism until years later. So the churches I attended always provoked a conflict in me. It stemmed from being taught Arminian beliefs after having a Calvinistic experience. Years later I was in a Church where they were teaching against "Limited Atonement". They defined it before teaching against it. That was the first time I ever heard Calvinism defined and finally knew what happened to me. I dropped out of the church and began an independent study of the doctrines of grace.
    Not just Israel, even Abraham received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit AFTER believing:

    Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit(E) by the works of the law,(F) or by believing what you heard?(G)3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a]4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles(H) among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?(I)6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c](J)

    In other words, Abraham heard the Gospel, believed, and experienced the Spirit creating a cross, and rescuing him, in the incident of being threatened by King Abhimelech and Pharoah. After seeing the rescues, Abraham understood how he would be a blessing to the world.


    Scripture says God made problems, like sicknesses and difficult puzzles, so that when we solved them, by the finger of God, people would see God was with us:

    Ep 2:10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
    ....

    Isaiah 45:7I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
    …..

    John 9:1Now as Jesus was passing by, He saw a man blind from birth, 2and His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
    ​​​​​​
    3Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him.

    ……..
    John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
    .....

    Luke 11:20But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
    .......

    That's why we have to pick up our crosses every day, so that when we are raised up from the earth, we will draw the world to God, which can only happen if we enter Rest:

    Heb 4:6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying [c]through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

    DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.” 8For if [d]Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

    Only then can we do things like heal sicknesses or explain difficult Scripture, showing the great works of God in solving the problems, in raising us up from the earth, after we pick up the cross.


    So when he was tested for entering the Kingdom, he passed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    But Scripture says we receive the Holy Spirit by hearing and believing. The text says Israel received the Gospel just like we did, and believed and drank from the Rock, received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, which they needed to profit from, like ground drinking rain. However, not many of them did respond well, had a different spirit, was born again, like Caleb, and only a few entered the Kingdom of God.

    So what did you hear?
    I heard a form of the gospel many times as a kid. So possibly this corresponds to your beliefs. But my experience aligns with scripture when understood Calvinistically. I didn't know anything about Calvinism until years later. So the churches I attended always provoked a conflict in me. It stemmed from being taught Arminian beliefs after having a Calvinistic experience. Years later I was in a Church where they were teaching against "Limited Atonement". They defined it before teaching against it. That was the first time I ever heard Calvinism defined and finally knew what happened to me. I dropped out of the church and began an independent study of the doctrines of grace.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    Not !
    Won't or can't?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    I believe my experience is typical throughout scripture. That it happens apart from the human will causing the will to react. People call it "supernaturalism" in contrast to "naturalism" which has no supernatural element.
    But Scripture says we receive the Holy Spirit by hearing and believing. The text says Israel received the Gospel just like we did, and believed and drank from the Rock, received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, which they needed to profit from, like ground drinking rain. However, not many of them did respond well, had a different spirit, was born again, like Caleb, and only a few entered the Kingdom of God.

    So what did you hear?

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Please explain your personal experiential conversion, how you changed from lying to not lying.
    Not !

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Very impressive.

    I want to regroup here.

    I think the point is to be saved in the way Scripture teaches is important. However, every believer has a different interpretation of what the Bible teaches regarding salvation.

    Would you agree that a good way to learn what the Bible teaches is to see if your understanding is repeated in every Bible character's life?
    I believe my experience is typical throughout scripture. That it happens apart from the human will causing the will to react. People call it "supernaturalism" in contrast to "naturalism" which has no supernatural element.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    When I was 20, the Lord converted me over a period of 3 days. I began telling people that I didn't know what was going on but I think Christ is real and he is dealing with me.

    The joy of the Holy Spirit and God's love had become real and excited me. And I didn’t want it to stop but feared that it might. On the evening of the 3rd day my happiness turned into remorse. God convicted me of sins I didn't even know existed. I began praying, sobbing and asking his forgiveness.

    I also asked Jesus into my heart. I heard you are supposed to do this, probably as a child in Sunday school. I fell asleep exhausted in tears only to awake the next day absolutely convinced Christ had saved me.

    I had never been so excited about anything. I began telling friends and others. I saw a whole string of conversions in and around people I knew. They believed me and wanted in on it too. None of us were churched, so we began experimenting with going to different churches. We and our girls rattled a few churches with our enthusiasm.

    Not wanting to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers, I gave up my career and began living the sermon on the mount (Matthew 6:24-34). Seeking first the kingdom of God as a career. To make a long story short, I began working unskilled labor part-time as unto the Lord. And retired early out of my own pocket, never missing a day's work even through two major recessions and job closings. The Lord is faithful.
    Very impressive.

    I want to regroup here.

    I think the point is to be saved in the way Scripture teaches is important. However, every believer has a different interpretation of what the Bible teaches regarding salvation.

    Would you agree that a good way to learn what the Bible teaches is to see if your understanding is repeated in every Bible character's life?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Please explain your personal experiential conversion, how you changed from lying to not lying.
    When I was 20, the Lord converted me over a period of 3 days. I began telling people that I didn't know what was going on but I think Christ is real and he is dealing with me.

    The joy of the Holy Spirit and God's love had become real and excited me. And I didn’t want it to stop but feared that it might. On the evening of the 3rd day my happiness turned into remorse. God convicted me of sins I didn't even know existed. I began praying, sobbing and asking his forgiveness.

    I also asked Jesus into my heart. I heard you are supposed to do this, probably as a child in Sunday school. I fell asleep exhausted in tears only to awake the next day absolutely convinced Christ had saved me.

    I had never been so excited about anything. I began telling friends and others. I saw a whole string of conversions in and around people I knew. They believed me and wanted in on it too. None of us were churched, so we began experimenting with going to different churches. We and our girls rattled a few churches with our enthusiasm.

    Not wanting to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers, I gave up my career and began living the sermon on the mount (Matthew 6:24-34). Seeking first the kingdom of God as a career. To make a long story short, I began working unskilled labor part-time as unto the Lord. And retired early out of my own pocket, never missing a day's work even through two major recessions and job closings. The Lord is faithful.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    I did explain it. You not attentive are you ?
    Please explain your personal experiential conversion, how you changed from lying to not lying.
    Last edited by footwasher; 01-07-2021, 08:17 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Your point is that the conversion is experiential, like a Holy Spirit indwelt person feels warmth, not just understands a doctrine and believes it must have happened because he did the right things.

    If you say the elect have an experential conversion, and we assume you are having knowledge of that experience, why don't you explain what it is?
    I did explain it. You not attentive are you ?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    Question is personal and rabbit trail away from the point of the post. Do you understand the point ?
    Your point is that the conversion is experiential, like a Holy Spirit indwelt person feels warmth, not just understands a doctrine and believes it must have happened because he did the right things.

    If you say the elect have an experential conversion, and we assume you are having knowledge of that experience, why don't you explain what it is?

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    You say that the blood of Christ "effects experiential conversion", "converts them He died for unto serving the living God", which "means they shall live by the Faith of Christ unto serving the True and Living God".

    But why are you still sinful?

    Why are you still not "living by the faith of Christ, unto serving the True and Living God"?
    Question is personal and rabbit trail away from the point of the post. Do you understand the point ?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
    The Blood/Death of Christ not only legally saved all for whom He died, but it also effects experiential salvation or conversion. Heb 9:12-14

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    "
    How much more shall the blood of Christ purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

    You see this ? Its the powerful Blood of Christ that converts them He died for unto serving the living God. That means they shall live by the Faith of Christ unto serving the True and Living God.

    1 Thess 1:9

    For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

    ​This is a result of the powerful effectual blood of Christ !15
    You say that the blood of Christ "effects experiential conversion", "converts them He died for unto serving the living God", which "means they shall live by the Faith of Christ unto serving the True and Living God".

    But why are you still sinful?

    Why are you still not "living by the faith of Christ, unto serving the True and Living God"?

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    The Blood/Death of Christ not only legally saved all for whom He died, but it also effects experiential salvation or conversion. Heb 9:12-14

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    "
    How much more shall the blood of Christ purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

    You see this ? Its the powerful Blood of Christ that converts them He died for unto serving the living God. That means they shall live by the Faith of Christ unto serving the True and Living God.

    1 Thess 1:9

    For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

    ​This is a result of the powerful effectual blood of Christ !15

    Leave a comment:

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