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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    #225
    Put the scriptures in quotes and I'll show you where you are missing the message.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Can't you read? Both Scripture quotes shows people spoke in tongues without any laying of hands.
    Quote the scriptures and I will show you where you are wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Where?
    #225

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Can't you read? Both Scripture quotes shows people spoke in tongues without any laying of hands.
    Where?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    This is not true. Show from scripture where it says people spoke in tongues. It was only during the two outpourings or after an apostle laid hands on them. You are adding to scripture in your present claims.
    Can't you read? Both Scripture quotes shows people spoke in tongues without any laying of hands.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Wrong. Here everyone who believed were filled with the Holy Spirit, and without laying on of hands, not just the Apostles:


    Acts 2.1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues a as the Spirit enabled them.


    Also here:


    Acts 10.44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [ae]message. 45All the [af]Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
    This is not true. Show from scripture where it says people spoke in tongues. It was only during the two outpourings or after an apostle laid hands on them. You are adding to scripture in your present claims.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    You not paying attention to what Im showing you already.
    You the one who don't understand Scripture. The text say that God hopes every person MIGHT look for Him. Nowhere in Scripture it say that God determines definitely that some people will find Him:

    Acts 17.26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Paul laid hands on them so they could receive the gifts. Further proof the gifts came only through an Apostle's hands after the two outpourings. = no Apostles, no gifts. “And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” Acts 8:18 (KJV 1900)
    Wrong. Here everyone who believed were filled with the Holy Spirit, and without laying on of hands, not just the Apostles:


    Acts 2.1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues a as the Spirit enabled them.


    Also here:


    Acts 10.44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [ae]message. 45All the [af]Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Show me how it says God made some undeserving people follow Jesus, and prevented other deserving people from doing the same.
    You not paying attention to what Im showing you already.

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Christ death results in the salvation of those He died for, so much so, He is called the Captain of their Salvation Heb 2:10

    10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

    Mine you, this is in the context of having tasted death for every man in Vs 9. Through and by His death, or His suffering unto death, He became the Captain of their Salvation, through tasting[experiencing] death. Now the word captain is the greek word archēgos and means:

    the author, that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

    So by His sufferings, tasting death, He became the originator, the active cause, Captain of their Salvation. It was by this means the Father ordained many sons to Glory.

    BTW the word captain is the same word author in Heb 12:2

    Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Christ is the author/source of our Faith. This would include the OT Saints that went before in Heb 11 as well. Christ their Mediator was the source of their faith. 63

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    When Paul reached Ephesus, he found believers. He was quite worried that they were ordinary, not gifted people. So he helped them to become gifted.

    Acts 19.1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when a you believed?”

    They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

    3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

    “John’s baptism,” they replied.

    4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues b and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
    Paul laid hands on them so they could receive the gifts. Further proof the gifts came only through an Apostle's hands after the two outpourings. = no Apostles, no gifts. “And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” Acts 8:18 (KJV 1900)

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    What do the scriptures say here ?
    Show me how it says God made some undeserving people follow Jesus, and prevented other deserving people from doing the same.

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    There is nothing in those Scripture quotes which says God made some people follow Jesus, and made others not to follow Him.
    What do the scriptures say here ?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Here's what you need to prove. That the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts were for all, not just the Apostles in Acts. And for those, they laid their hands on.

    Also, try to prove there were more than two outpourings of the Spirit with the gifts. Put up your arguments and I will show you where they fail.
    When Paul reached Ephesus, he found believers. He was quite worried that they were ordinary, not gifted people. So he helped them to become gifted.

    Acts 19.1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when a you believed?”

    They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

    3So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”

    “John’s baptism,” they replied.

    4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues b and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    What Scripture am I ignoring?
    Here's what you need to prove. That the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts were for all, not just the Apostles in Acts. And for those, they laid their hands on.

    Also, try to prove there were more than two outpourings of the Spirit with the gifts. Put up your arguments and I will show you where they fail.

    Leave a comment:

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