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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    You off to the races !
    Is English your second language?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Didn't you say Clark makes God into a sinner?
    If I said my words make you into a fool if they are true, doesn't it mean that it only makes you into a fool if they are true?

    If you didn't understand what I said about Clark in short form, here it is again:

    If Clark's words are true, then it makes God a sinner, but only if those words are true, which they obviously are not.

    'K?

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    God was pleased with Abraham, because he was loyal, faithful, agreed with God that the world was not a suitable place for those made in His image. He wanted a better country, a country where good people would live lives that was suitable for them, and having a conclusion which was meaningful, with gains that did not perish. So He promised Abraham that he would have the privilege of being a blessing to the world, make people turn to Him, because that is the condition where lives became meaningful, resulting in treasure which does not perish.


    Then God promised Abraham that He would give him that world. Abraham understood that to be a blessing to the world required for him to be in the Promised World, Rest, Kingdom of God. In that Land, the ability to make people turn to God was available, was flowing with milk and honey.


    He thought he had been given that promise, to be able to turn people to God, so he was ready to sacrifice Isaac, thinking that people would turn to God when they heard He had raised up Isaac from the dead and given him back to Abraham. But God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, because the Kingdom of God hadn't come amongst men yet. However, He kept a place for Abraham in the Kingdom, so that together with us, he would become a blessing to the world.


    Yes, in Christ, we become blessings to the world. We become what Adam was meant to be, People of God who complete Creation, subdue the earth, tame it, turn the world to serve God.


    Rahab was subdued, and also Nicodemus. Through the finger of God. By God's work being displayed through Caleb and Jesus. By being in the Kingdom.


    See, Moses could turn Israel to follow God, because he was standing in God's presence, was together with God, like Adam. That's because even though he was sinful, he was able to be pure, and only the pure can see God, stand in His presence, and do great works through the finger of God. That's because Moses was in the cleft of the Rock, which covered him, just like Adam was in the Garden, which covered him.


    When we enter the Kingdom, we are also covered by Christ. Now we can be in God's presence, have the union with God that Jesus prayed for in John 15. We are perfected, because we are hidden in Christ.


    That is why it is so important to enter the Kingdom.


    Please enter the Kingdom, Brightfame52.
    You off to the races !

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Never said God sins. Are you on meds?
    Didn't you say Clark makes God into a sinner?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Are you saying God can sin? By whose standards?
    Never said God sins. Are you on meds?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    God is NOT evil.

    He CREATES evil and darkness, difficult situations and difficult Scripture, in advance, for Kingdom dwellers, those IN Christ, to solve:

    Ephesians 2.10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

    Paul says this is the same as Jesus doing miracles, causing Nicodemus to seek God, Caleb doing miracles, causing Rahab to seek God:


    1 Cor 14.24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

    Maybe it's even better, because Jesus went to the Father and sent the Holy Spirit. Now I can minister to ungifted people like you over the InterWeb, without coming physically to you, to show you signs.

    ​​​​​​
    We who are IN Christ are blessings to the world. All we do results in treasure in heaven, which does not perish. You are just a tourist, using up space and oxygen. All you do will rust and perish. Please, come into the Kingdom, be baptised into Christ.
    Are you saying God can sin? By whose standards?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)

    “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?” Amos 3:6 (KJV 1900)

    “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” 1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV 1900)

    etc., etc.
    God is NOT evil.

    He CREATES evil and darkness, difficult situations and difficult Scripture, in advance, for Kingdom dwellers, those IN Christ, to solve:

    Ephesians 2.10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

    Paul says this is the same as Jesus doing miracles, causing Nicodemus to seek God, Caleb doing miracles, causing Rahab to seek God:


    1 Cor 14.24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

    Maybe it's even better, because Jesus went to the Father and sent the Holy Spirit. Now I can minister to ungifted people like you over the InterWeb, without coming physically to you, to show you signs.

    ​​​​​​
    We who are IN Christ are blessings to the world. All we do results in treasure in heaven, which does not perish. You are just a tourist, using up space and oxygen. All you do will rust and perish. Please, come into the Kingdom, be baptised into Christ.
    Last edited by footwasher; 02-05-2021, 07:04 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    No way God could be evil.
    “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)

    “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?” Amos 3:6 (KJV 1900)

    “But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.” 1 Samuel 16:14 (KJV 1900)

    etc., etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    If Clark is right, you hate God and worship an idol you think is God. Let's be honest.
    No way God could be evil. Paul knew the people in Acts 19 were ignorant about the Holy Spirit and therefore they were stunted in their spiritual growth, could not benefit from the work of Christ. That's why he wanted to start them of on the benefits of the ministry of Christ.

    You should know that the benefits begin in this life, not after you die. You have the potential to be blessings to others. Don't hesitate. There remains a rest for believers to enter. Do so.
    Last edited by footwasher; 02-05-2021, 11:47 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    No, I love God, so I don't think evil about Him. Job learnt this the hard way.

    ​Also, my claim is that those in the Kingdom of God are gifted. When they explain difficult Scripture, good people are motivated to follow God. The wicked love the darkness and prefer to walk on the broad path to destruction.

    I explained Is 45.7. You explained nothing. Proving you are not in the Kingdom.

    1 Cor 14.24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

    I am a blessing to the world. You are a waste of space. This is how Paul knew the people in Acts 19 were not blessings to the world.
    If Clark is right, you hate God and worship an idol you think is God. Let's be honest.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    What if Clark is right? Does this mean you hate God?
    No, I love God, so I don't think evil about Him. Job learnt this the hard way.

    ​Also, my claim is that those in the Kingdom of God are gifted. When they explain difficult Scripture, good people are motivated to follow God. The wicked love the darkness and prefer to walk on the broad path to destruction.

    I explained Is 45.7. You explained nothing. Proving you are not in the Kingdom.

    1 Cor 14.24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

    I am a blessing to the world. You are a waste of space. This is how Paul knew the people in Acts 19 were not blessings to the world.
    Last edited by footwasher; 02-05-2021, 11:18 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    God sets standards for Himself that are higher than He sets for others. Don't make God unjust. Don't defame Him. Don't make Him a monster.

    1 John 1.5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

    Also in the case of the man born blind, God did not cause anyone to sin. He caused problems, calamities, evil: He made the man blind from birth. Please explain why He did it.
    What if Clark is right? Does this mean you hate God?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Gordon Clark (VS Van Til) solved for many the Problem of Evil. This is a bare-bones summary worth looking into if interested.

    Clark first asks; "How can the existence of God be harmonized with the existence of evil?"

    If God is all-good, He would want to destroy evil.

    If God is all-powerful, He is able to destroy evil. But evil still exists.

    It seems that God cannot be both all-good and all-powerful. However, Christianity teaches that He is both. This is the problem of evil."

    Clark stated that "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."
    God sets standards for Himself that are higher than He sets for others. Don't make God unjust. Don't defame Him. Don't make Him a monster.

    1 John 1.5This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

    Also in the case of the man born blind, God did not cause anyone to sin. He caused problems, calamities, evil: He made the man blind from birth. Please explain why He did it.
    Last edited by footwasher; 02-05-2021, 08:27 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Ooh! You have the explanation? Do tell!
    Gordon Clark (VS Van Til) solved for many the Problem of Evil. This is a bare-bones summary worth looking into if interested.

    Clark first asks; "How can the existence of God be harmonized with the existence of evil?"

    If God is all-good, He would want to destroy evil.

    If God is all-powerful, He is able to destroy evil. But evil still exists.

    It seems that God cannot be both all-good and all-powerful. However, Christianity teaches that He is both. This is the problem of evil."

    Clark stated that "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    Those Christ died for are perfected forever by His Death Heb 10:14

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
    God was pleased with Abraham, because he was loyal, faithful, agreed with God that the world was not a suitable place for those made in His image. He wanted a better country, a country where good people would live lives that was suitable for them, and having a conclusion which was meaningful, with gains that did not perish. So He promised Abraham that he would have the privilege of being a blessing to the world, make people turn to Him, because that is the condition where lives became meaningful, resulting in treasure which does not perish.


    Then God promised Abraham that He would give him that world. Abraham understood that to be a blessing to the world required for him to be in the Promised World, Rest, Kingdom of God. In that Land, the ability to make people turn to God was available, was flowing with milk and honey.


    He thought he had been given that promise, to be able to turn people to God, so he was ready to sacrifice Isaac, thinking that people would turn to God when they heard He had raised up Isaac from the dead and given him back to Abraham. But God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, because the Kingdom of God hadn't come amongst men yet. However, He kept a place for Abraham in the Kingdom, so that together with us, he would become a blessing to the world.


    Yes, in Christ, we become blessings to the world. We become what Adam was meant to be, People of God who complete Creation, subdue the earth, tame it, turn the world to serve God.


    Rahab was subdued, and also Nicodemus. Through the finger of God. By God's work being displayed through Caleb and Jesus. By being in the Kingdom.


    See, Moses could turn Israel to follow God, because he was standing in God's presence, was together with God, like Adam. That's because even though he was sinful, he was able to be pure, and only the pure can see God, stand in His presence, and do great works through the finger of God. That's because Moses was in the cleft of the Rock, which covered him, just like Adam was in the Garden, which covered him.


    When we enter the Kingdom, we are also covered by Christ. Now we can be in God's presence, have the union with God that Jesus prayed for in John 15. We are perfected, because we are hidden in Christ.


    That is why it is so important to enter the Kingdom.


    Please enter the Kingdom, Brightfame52.

    Leave a comment:

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