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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    The law could not save. It only sent people to hell.
    Your argument is with Scripture, not me. This man, under law, like Elizabeth and Zacharias, was found righteous, unlike the Pharisee who neglected the weightier requirements of the law:

    Luke 18.14I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other one; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

    Rest is available, you should enter, then you'll be able to open the eyes of the spiritually blind, be a blessing to the world, receive the Gospel promise.
    Last edited by footwasher; 03-02-2021, 09:43 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    U

    No. God gave the opportunity to repent to all the Jews. Everyone was given the law. The reactions were different. Those who bowed their knee to baal saw it as a way to identify themselves as children of Abraham. But the stipulation of the law was that if you failed in one observance means you have failed in all. So no one was a child of Abraham. Only when God used a different measure other than performance, works, did SOME pass: when God used grace, which measures success by faith, those who tried to observe all the law were justified. Those who tried to sneak pass, by observing fasting, tithing and Sabbath keeping, but neglecting the weightier requirements of the law, like justice, mercy and faithfulness went home without being justified. This is what Jesus (and John the Baptist) taught. Israel needed to repent, meta-noia, change their mind set about the law, should believe God's words:

    Matt 23.23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.


    Luke 3.7So he was saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, “You [d]offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Therefore produce fruits that are consistent with repentance, and do not start saying [e]to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children for Abraham. 9But indeed the axe is already being laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

    Abraham's children are identified by faith! The remnant 7000 were justified only when God kept them, used grace, looked only at the sincerity, faith, loyalty of the believer.

    God reworded, interpreted His Covenant in a merciful, gracious, lenient, way. He didn't reprogram the Remnant.
    The law could not save. It only sent people to hell.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Paul taught the same teaching:

    1 Cor 14.24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an [k]outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

    As did Jesus:

    John 9.1As Jesus passed by, He saw a man who had been blind from birth. 2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?” 3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

    John 12.32If I am lifted up above the earth, I will make everyone want to come to me."

    John 3.1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to [a]Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [b]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    I could write more, but your poor brain would not be able to absorb it.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    This is the proof that I am in the Kingdom of God. Everyone in the Kingdom can open the spiritually blind eyes of the ungifted in the church, be blessings to the world, as they walk in the works prepared in advance by God. God created calamities, darkness, made men blind from birth, recorded difficult Scripture passages, so that He would be glorified when His followers healed sicknesses, explained difficult Scriptures, warm the hearts of those who hear the explanation:

    Luke 24.13And behold, on that very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, which was [g]sixty stadia from Jerusalem. 14And they were talking with each other about all these things which had taken place. 15While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. 16But their eyes were kept from recognizing Him. 17And He said to them, “What are these words that you are exchanging with one another as you are walking?” And they came to a stop, looking sad. 18One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, “Are You possibly the only one living near Jerusalem [h]who does not know about the things that happened here in these days?” 19And He said to them, “What sort of things?” And they said to Him, “Those about Jesus the Nazarene, who proved to be a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, 20and how the chief priests and our rulers handed Him over to be sentenced to death, and crucified Him. 21But we [i]were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22But also some women among us left us bewildered. When they were at the tomb early in the morning, 23and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive. 24And so some of those who were with us went to the tomb, and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see.” 25And then He said to them, “[j]You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26Was it not necessary for the [k]Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27Then beginning [l]with Moses and [m]with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

    28And they approached the village where they were going, and He gave the impression that He was going farther. 29And so they strongly urged Him, saying, “Stay with us, for it is getting toward evening, and the day [n]is now nearly over.” So He went in to stay with them. 30And it came about, when He had reclined at the table with them, that He took the bread and blessed it, and He broke it and began giving it to them. 31And then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him; and He vanished from [o]their sight. 32They said to one another, “[p]Were our hearts not burning within us when He was speaking to us on the road, while He was [q]explaining the Scriptures to us?”

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    U
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    “But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” Romans 11:4–5 (KJV 1900)

    This means God only granted repentance (Salvation) to 7000 from among the Jews. It's not as you assume.
    No. God gave the opportunity to repent to all the Jews. Everyone was given the law. The reactions were different. Those who bowed their knee to baal saw it as a way to identify themselves as children of Abraham. But the stipulation of the law was that if you failed in one observance means you have failed in all. So no one was a child of Abraham. Only when God used a different measure other than performance, works, did SOME pass: when God used grace, which measures success by faith, those who tried to observe all the law were justified. Those who tried to sneak pass, by observing fasting, tithing and Sabbath keeping, but neglecting the weightier requirements of the law, like justice, mercy and faithfulness went home without being justified. This is what Jesus (and John the Baptist) taught. Israel needed to repent, meta-noia, change their mind set about the law, should believe God's words:

    Matt 23.23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.


    Luke 3.7So he was saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, “You [d]offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Therefore produce fruits that are consistent with repentance, and do not start saying [e]to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children for Abraham. 9But indeed the axe is already being laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

    Abraham's children are identified by faith! The remnant 7000 were justified only when God kept them, used grace, looked only at the sincerity, faith, loyalty of the believer.

    God reworded, interpreted His Covenant in a merciful, gracious, lenient, way. He didn't reprogram the Remnant.
    Last edited by footwasher; 03-02-2021, 10:26 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Yes but all were given REPENTANCE. Why were all not saved in the end? If repentance is salvation why did Jesus ask people to repent and believe in Him. There's no need to ask people to repent, if it's in their power to do it, right? It's like saying God gave the elect salvation and saying 'Save yourself from the wrath to come'. He wouldn't, would He? But He did!

    Also, you quoted Scripture which you say describes me, what happens to worshippers of false gods. You haven't described why they are false gods.

    While I described why your god is false. You keep getting your explanations wrong. See what indicates you have the real God with you:

    John 3.1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to [a]Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [b]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
    “But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” Romans 11:4–5 (KJV 1900)

    This means God only granted repentance (Salvation) to 7000 from among the Jews. It's not as you assume.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Only a few in OT Israel were saved. God gave them the law threatening them with death if they did not obey. Saved people do not need this. They already forfeited the land promises ever before reaching Canaan. An 11-day journey that took 40 years to kill them off. Only two of the original nation entered Canaan.
    Yes but all were given REPENTANCE. Why were all not saved in the end? If repentance is salvation why did Jesus ask people to repent and believe in Him. There's no need to ask people to repent, if it's in their power to do it, right? It's like saying God gave the elect salvation and saying 'Save yourself from the wrath to come'. He wouldn't, would He? But He did!

    Also, you quoted Scripture which you say describes me, what happens to worshippers of false gods. You haven't described why they are false gods.

    While I described why your god is false. You keep getting your explanations wrong. See what indicates you have the real God with you:

    John 3.1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to [a]Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [b]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
    Last edited by footwasher; 03-01-2021, 11:56 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    If you are saved, how is it you can't defend the claim that Israel was given repentance and yet was cut off for unbelief?
    Only a few in OT Israel were saved. God gave them the law threatening them with death if they did not obey. Saved people do not need this. They already forfeited the land promises ever before reaching Canaan. An 11-day journey that took 40 years to kill them off. Only two of the original nation entered Canaan.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    An example might be when Stephen at the time of his martyrdom said: “But God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’” (Acts 7:42–43)
    If you are saved, how is it you can't defend the claim that Israel was given repentance and yet was cut off for unbelief?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Prove that with Scripture. If you have the ability to read and understand, hear and listen. Which you seem not to. Will pray for you.
    An example might be when Stephen at the time of his martyrdom said: “But God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’” (Acts 7:42–43)

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Just as the Jews sacrificed to Molech, many follow an idol they carved into a Jesus they find acceptable. I serve a Christ who saves sinners who cannot believe before he saves them. You serve a version of Christ who allows the self-righteous to save themselves but to no avail. Free will salvation represents a false Christ.
    Prove that with Scripture. If you have the ability to read and understand, hear and listen. Which you seem not to. Will pray for you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    It's the same Bible. And the warning is there.

    Romans 15.4For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

    Might.

    Heb 3.19And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

    Not able to enter.

    1 Cor 10.1I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

    6These things took place as examples to keep us from craving evil things as they did.

    They were baptized, but God was not pleased with most of them...

    Think about that.
    Just as the Jews sacrificed to Molech, many follow an idol they carved into a Jesus they find acceptable. I serve a Christ who saves sinners who cannot believe before he saves them. You serve a version of Christ who allows the self-righteous to save themselves but to no avail. Free will salvation represents a false Christ.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    I don't think we serve the same Christ.
    It's the same Bible. And the warning is there.

    Romans 15.4For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

    Might.

    Heb 3.19And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

    Not able to enter.

    1 Cor 10.1I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

    6These things took place as examples to keep us from craving evil things as they did.

    They were baptized, but God was not pleased with most of them...

    Think about that.
    Last edited by footwasher; 02-27-2021, 02:31 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    If you believed as I do, you would be safe at the Judgment.
    I don't think we serve the same Christ.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    If I believed as you do, I'd take some time with your longer posts.
    If you believed as I do, you would be safe at the Judgment.

    Leave a comment:

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