Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Circumcision made one a physical Jew or Physical member of Israel. Christ abolished circumcision on the cross.
    You are right that circumcision decides who is a Jew. That's why Jews are still Jews, and are not Gentiles.

    Christ didn't come to abolish the Law for Israel. Not one one jot, nor one tittle of the law will pass away, till every thing is fulfilled.
    Last edited by footwasher; 03-15-2021, 01:25 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    So why was Israel cut off?
    Circumcision made one a physical Jew or Physical member of Israel. Christ abolished circumcision on the cross.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Wrong. The text clearly says Israel was cut off. They would have perished, become extinct, like Sodom and Gomorrah, if God hadn't used grace, and forgiven the remnant. Even today, there is a remnant in Judaism, who are faithful, under law, fasting, tithing, keeping Sabbath, without neglecting the weightier requirements of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness.

    The Church is NOT Israel. Israel is those who have been given the Old Covenant, Jews not Gentiles. Only Jews have been given the Sinaitic Covenant. When they finally drive out the slave woman and her son, then they will again be gathered into Abraham's family.
    They were cut off and are now gentiles who think they are Israel. They exist for one reason. Their hatred of God (Christ) and remain under His wrath as a gentile nation.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Remember in Romans 11, God removed all unbelievers from Israel and added believing Gentiles in their place. Only the unbelievers perished in the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70. Spiritual Israel (true Israel) escaped and remains as the Church today.
    Wrong. The text clearly says Israel was cut off. They would have perished, become extinct, like Sodom and Gomorrah, if God hadn't used grace, and forgiven the remnant. Even today, there is a remnant in Judaism, who are faithful, under law, fasting, tithing, keeping Sabbath, without neglecting the weightier requirements of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness.

    The Church is NOT Israel. Israel is those who have been given the Old Covenant, Jews not Gentiles. Only Jews have been given the Sinaitic Covenant. When they finally drive out the slave woman and her son, then they will again be gathered into Abraham's family.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
    fw



    Absolutely false. Repentance was given Israel, not a opportunity Acts 5:31

    1 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
    So why was Israel cut off?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    This proves that the opportunity to repent was given to Israel, not repentance was given to Israel. And Israel failed to take that opportunity.

    You say that only the remnant are Israel.

    But Jesus clearly said His ministry was to Israel, that He would perform faith strengthening miracles only for Israel, and that included non-believing Israel, Chorazin and Bethesda, and Jerusalem, which would not be gathered under Jesus's wings, like those of a mother hen. He specifically said they were God's Children, unlike the Syro-Phoenician woman. They had a written contract.

    Bottomline, Jews refused to follow Jesus, just like the Israelites refused to follow Joshua, because they didn't want to suffer, they wanted to run away from challenges that Jesus and Joshua asked them to face, pick up crosses, face the Amalekites.
    Remember in Romans 11, God removed all unbelievers from Israel and added believing Gentiles in their place. Only the unbelievers perished in the siege of Jerusalem in AD 70. Spiritual Israel (true Israel) escaped and remains as the Church today.

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    fw

    This proves that the opportunity to repent was given to Israel, not repentance was given to Israel.
    Absolutely false. Repentance was given Israel, not a opportunity Acts 5:31

    1 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Why did the Jews reject him so often and kill him when he stood right in front of them?
    This proves that the opportunity to repent was given to Israel, not repentance was given to Israel. And Israel failed to take that opportunity.

    You say that only the remnant are Israel.

    But Jesus clearly said His ministry was to Israel, that He would perform faith strengthening miracles only for Israel, and that included non-believing Israel, Chorazin and Bethesda, and Jerusalem, which would not be gathered under Jesus's wings, like those of a mother hen. He specifically said they were God's Children, unlike the Syro-Phoenician woman. They had a written contract.

    Bottomline, Jews refused to follow Jesus, just like the Israelites refused to follow Joshua, because they didn't want to suffer, they wanted to run away from challenges that Jesus and Joshua asked them to face, pick up crosses, face the Amalekites.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    You are understanding that God gave repentance only to the remnant in Israel. No!

    He came and gave the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit to ALL of Israel. Only a few drank rain and produced vegetation. The rest produced thorns and thistles and were burned up.

    So salvation doesn't depend on being given repentance, opportunity to believe. Salvation depends on using that opportunity loyally, faithfully, by believing.
    Why did the Jews reject him so often and kill him when he stood right in front of them?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    How do we differ on this point?
    You are understanding that God gave repentance only to the remnant in Israel. No!

    He came and gave the faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit to ALL of Israel. Only a few drank rain and produced vegetation. The rest produced thorns and thistles and were burned up.

    So salvation doesn't depend on being given repentance, opportunity to believe. Salvation depends on using that opportunity loyally, faithfully, by believing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    You got your wires crossed.

    God took the Kingdom away from His People, and gave to those who were NOT His people, the Gentiles:

    Gal 3.13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”f 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abrahamg would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
    How do we differ on this point?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Most were wicked beyond belief. On a few born-again believers were among them. Only these had eternal life. God removed the unbelievers turning them back into gentiles after the Cross. Only believers make up the church (Biblical Israel) today.
    You got your wires crossed.

    God took the Kingdom away from His People, and gave to those who were NOT His people, the Gentiles:

    Gal 3.13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”f 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abrahamg would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Heb 11.39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

    These people were all saved. They didn't receive salvation, but when the means of salvation were given, they were given it.

    God used different instructions to be obeyed to give salvation. With law, the instruction was to believe His words: ALL THE LAW MUST BE OBSERVED. Israel had to fast, tithe, keep the Sabbath, WITHOUT neglecting the weightier requirements of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness. Elizabeth and Zacharias, and the Publican believed, shown by their humility, indicating their humbleness at not being able to follow the law! They were justified, found righteous! The Pharisees did not believe the straightforward word of God, indicated by their pride in thinking they were kosher. Fail! Went away without being justified!

    So the law had benefits. It was a pedagogos, babysitter, slave, Ishmael, protected Israel until the New Covenant, son, heir, Isaac, was given.
    Most were wicked beyond belief. On a few born-again believers were among them. Only these had eternal life. God removed the unbelievers turning them back into gentiles after the Cross. Only believers make up the church (Biblical Israel) today.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Basic Christianity proves the law could not save. God killed the wicked but preserved the obedient. It has nothing to do with salvation. But believers were born again and saved, though few in number. “The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins.” Romans 8:3 (NLT)
    Heb 11.39These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 40God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

    These people were all saved. They didn't receive salvation, but when the means of salvation were given, they were given it.

    God used different instructions to be obeyed to give salvation. With law, the instruction was to believe His words: ALL THE LAW MUST BE OBSERVED. Israel had to fast, tithe, keep the Sabbath, WITHOUT neglecting the weightier requirements of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness. Elizabeth and Zacharias, and the Publican believed, shown by their humility, indicating their humbleness at not being able to follow the law! They were justified, found righteous! The Pharisees did not believe the straightforward word of God, indicated by their pride in thinking they were kosher. Fail! Went away without being justified!

    So the law had benefits. It was a pedagogos, babysitter, slave, Ishmael, protected Israel until the New Covenant, son, heir, Isaac, was given.
    Last edited by footwasher; 03-03-2021, 09:57 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Your argument is with Scripture, not me. This man, under law, like Elizabeth and Zacharias, was found righteous, unlike the Pharisee who neglected the weightier requirements of the law:

    Luke 18.14I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other one; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

    Rest is available, you should enter, then you'll be able to open the eyes of the spiritually blind, be a blessing to the world, receive the Gospel promise.
    Basic Christianity proves the law could not save. God killed the wicked but preserved the obedient. It has nothing to do with salvation. But believers were born again and saved, though few in number. “The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins.” Romans 8:3 (NLT)

    Leave a comment:

widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
Working...
X