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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • brightfame52
    replied
    The harvest of Christ's Death. Peace, the outcome of the cross. We believe that the Savior's finished work has rendered our[Gods Elect] damnation impossible, and our salvation certain,99

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    ? 1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2 explicitly state that there is a law of Christ. But your post doesn't address the issue that I raised:

    Are you claiming that Christ actually sets us free from sin, rather than just the penalty for sin - and in this lifetime even?
    The law of Christ is to be loyal to him, unlike what Jews are under, Torah, and what Gentiles are under, conscience.

    The Atonement frees us from sin, in the sense that where there is no law, there is no sin.

    Sin is the obstruction to union with God. It no longer exists because of the death of the law giver.

    Of course, the penalty of sin is death, and that has been taken away, too. Scholars say that since Adam didn't immediately die, but was separated from God, death is separation from God. Which is correct: the ruining of God's plan meant our lives are futile. The results of our existence rust and perish, don't remain.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Sin no longer has power over the People of God, those IN Christ:

    Where there is no law, there is no transgression (sin). Rom 4.15
    ? 1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2 explicitly state that there is a law of Christ. But your post doesn't address the issue that I raised:

    Are you claiming that Christ actually sets us free from sin, rather than just the penalty for sin - and in this lifetime even?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Are you claiming that Christ actually sets us free from sin, rather than just the penalty for sin - and in this lifetime even? Surely not.
    What plan of God was ruined?

    God loves righteousness, like a Gardener loves fruitful plants, so He devised a plan to see righteousness expressed. He put man in a garden, where, because he was not knowing good from evil, he was without sin. Minors are never found guilty in a court of law because they are not competent, nor are the insane. They aren't responsible for their actions because they don't have the capacity to recognise right from wrong. In fact, the frontal lobes of a teenager's brain which are responsible for making correct judgments are not fully developed. That's why teens keep doing or saying silly things. We think they are awkward, but it's not their fault. They don't know better.

    The reason Adam had to be treated as sinless (he actually did or thought sinful things, they were just not counted against him, for the reason stated before) is that he needed to be in union with God. God made the world untamed, so that He and Adam could subdue it together. This was a project that would express righteousness, just as successfully baking a cake with our mothers were symptoms of harmony and cooperation in the family. As long as progress was being made, creation was being subdued, you could conclude that Adam was being righteous (NOT EATING FROM THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL!), and also conclude God's plan was working. Adam's disobedience led to the plan being ruined.

    God's solution to the problem
    How can God make humanity able to be in union with Him again, signifying righteousness expressed (being what God wants)? Only the pure can see God, can ascend the holy mountain.

    We saw in the Garden God kept Adam innocent by commanding him to hold back from gaining the knowledge of good and evil. So even if he did or thought something wrong, which the record shows he did, he would be sinless. The law was powerless against those who are not responsible for their actions.

    Somehow, the law had to be neutralised again.

    Quote
    We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

    https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/
    ...

    As we can see, God shows how he plans to neutralise law again, in the type shown in Scripture. The death of the Administrator of the law releases the lawbreaker from the force of the law.

    Imagine the President passing a law stating it was illegal to step out without an N95 mask. Suppose he fails to gain a second term. The failure to remain an administrator leads to the danger of his law becoming powerless. The next administration can revoke the law. What was illegal, not wearing a mask, has now become legal. The law became neutralised at the disappearance of the Law Giver.


    When God gave up His Son as a sacrifice, the Law Giver was made to disappear.


    2 Cor 5.17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: a The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

    Sin no longer has power over the People of God, those IN Christ:

    Where there is no law, there is no transgression (sin). Rom 4.15

    Also
    Romans 5:13
    For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
    Last edited by footwasher; 07-22-2021, 01:50 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Correction. I'm unorthodox, not conforming to the majority view. But the Reformation did not conform to the majority view either. And the New Reformation, of which the New Perspective is one aspect, doesn't conform either.

    However, we are Scripturally sound. Confirmed by how the majority view cannot stand against the reformations' mission to form Scripturally based views.

    If you think different, prove it. It does need someone with substance, though.
    Are you claiming that Christ actually sets us free from sin, rather than just the penalty for sin - and in this lifetime even? Surely not.

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    The positive effect of Christ dying, giving of Himself, or offering of Himself for those He did for, is actual absolute redemption from all iniquity Titus 2:14

    14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    The word that, the conjunction hina which means:

    in order that, so that, in order that (denoting the purpose or the result 96

    So His giving of Himself produces redemptive results, which God purposed, one such result was redeem them from all iniquity, that's Salvation right there !

    This was promised in the OT
    Ps 130:8

    And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. The Israel here is not physical national israel, its Spiritual Israel the Church as seen in Titus 2:14

    In other words the promise of Ps 130:8 found its fulfillment in Christ and the Church, and so its a sure result of Christ redeeming death !

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    Do you want to discuss the post or not sir ?
    I am telling you something that you don't agree, that the text is not literal.

    For example, you may read that when we hear the Gospel with faith, we will receive the Holy Spirit. You conclude that:

    1. We will 'feel' better
    2. We will go to heaven

    That's not true. What's true is:

    1. We will be led into the wilderness
    2. We will experience suffering
    3. We will be rescued
    4. We must learn obedience (hear with faith, to enter the Kingdom)

    It happened to Abraham, Caleb and even Jesus. The bottomline, they experienced faith strengthening experiences. But Israel refused to be convinced. They were not able to enter Rest, the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham, to be blessings to the world, by manifesting signs that showed God was with them.

    Heb 5.8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

    Even the believers in Acts 19 experienced faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, tongues that edify self.

    How can I discuss stuff with people who believe in literal, simplistic, meanings? The writers gave simple outlines, because they were there, they could expand, unpack their outlines.
    Last edited by footwasher; 07-20-2021, 10:04 PM.

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  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
    It is a heresy and false teaching if Christ's death alone does not guarantee a saving result for them He died for ! This applies to those who also teach that Christ died in some non redemptive way for the non elect ! That is, God had subordinate purposes to redemption, which Christs death did not ensure a saving, converting result !91
    To all who accepted him, he gave authority to become sons of God. Jesus died that all might become sons of God - not that all become sons of God. The difference is profound.

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    I don't think that I could improve on what you have stated there.
    That doesnt mean you cannot discuss it. What did you understand me to be saying ? How does it exalt Christ ?

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    Hi, do you want to discuss the post ? Post 367
    I don't think that I could improve on what you have stated there.

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    ったく
    Until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the least part of the law shall pass, until all has been fulfilled. But if the law had been perfect, no occasion would have been found to introduce a second. But now, there is neither Jew nor Gentile.
    Either of two conditions were able to cause the law to pass (Koine Greek texts do not leave room for doubt) - 1/ Heaven and Earth pass away. 2/ Everything would be brought to pass. What happened on the cross?
    Hi, do you want to discuss the post ? Post 367

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    ったく
    Until Heaven and Earth pass away, not the least part of the law shall pass, until all has been fulfilled. But if the law had been perfect, no occasion would have been found to introduce a second. But now, there is neither Jew nor Gentile.
    Either of two conditions were able to cause the law to pass (Koine Greek texts do not leave room for doubt) - 1/ Heaven and Earth pass away. 2/ Everything would be brought to pass. What happened on the cross?

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Brightfame52, we find it very difficult to converse with you. If you read the posts from the beginning, you seem to have problems, either with the language, or with mentally understanding ideas. You should see a doctor and get fixed. Please come back after that. Hope you understand. We must have good conversation here, to be good witnesses to the world. Readers should not think we are unwell, or accept conversations that are confused. We must make good impressions, or at least seen to be trying. Thanks for understanding.
    Do you want to discuss the post or not sir ?

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied

    It is a heresy and false teaching if Christ's death alone does not guarantee a saving result for them He died for ! This applies to those who also teach that Christ died in some non redemptive way for the non elect ! That is, God had subordinate purposes to redemption, which Christs death did not ensure a saving, converting result !91

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
    Christs death produces saving results in that by it the Children of God/Sheep/Church is gathered unto God Jn 11:50-52

    50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

    51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

    52 And not for that nation only, but that [in order that] also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

    Clearly the purpose of His dying for that nation [jews] but not them only[gentiles] was for the gathering of them together to form them into One People unto God. This is also expressed earlier in John here Jn 10:16

    15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    The word bring here serves the same purpose as the word gather in Jn 11:52.

    The word gather means συνάγω:

    to lead together, bring together, come together (pass.), entertain
    Usage: I gather together, collect, assemble, receive with hospitality, entertain.

    to join together, join in one (those previously separated):

    This speaks to the jews and gentiles being once separated, now being brought together by the death of Christ Eph 2:11-19
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    Click to expand...

    This gathering was prophesied in the OT here Gen 49:9-10

    9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

    10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

    Christ is Shiloh. This is probably what Caiaphas the high priest was moved to utter about Jn 11:49ff

    The word for gathering in Gen 49:10 is the word yᵊqāhâ:

    obedience, cleansing, purging,; obedience:—gathering, to obey.69

    The Death of Christ was designed to bring together the people of God from among all nations to the obedience of the Faith, under One Head.
    Brightfame52, we find it very difficult to converse with you. If you read the posts from the beginning, you seem to have problems, either with the language, or with mentally understanding ideas. You should see a doctor and get fixed. Please come back after that. Hope you understand. We must have good conversation here, to be good witnesses to the world. Readers should not think we are unwell, or accept conversations that are confused. We must make good impressions, or at least seen to be trying. Thanks for understanding.

    Leave a comment:

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