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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    You are confusing the prayer of faith with the Apostle's signs and wonders. I haven't needed a doctor since the 1980s because of the prayer of Faith. But you cannot produce one example of the Apostle's signs and wonders being for today. Not one.
    Why don't you bring someone with a problem to my church?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

      Why don't you bring someone with a problem to my church?
      What church or persuasion do you belong to?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

        What church or persuasion do you belong to?
        That's not relevant. What is relevant is if I can perform signs, what signs are, and the purpose of signs, since you ask if I can perform signs.

        For example, would you agree signs are to ignite interest in those who see it and understand that God is on the side of those performing signs, because when they attempt difficult tasks, pick up crosses, God raised them up, in the process drawing the world to God, and they are rewarded with treasure that does not perish, because they lead others to God, are the way Abraham's descendants are blessings to the world?
        Last edited by footwasher; 01-24-2021, 08:06 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

          That's not relevant. What is relevant is if I can perform signs, what signs are, and the purpose of signs, since you ask if I can perform signs.

          For example, would you agree signs are to ignite interest in those who see it and understand that God is on the side of those performing signs, because when they attempt difficult tasks, pick up crosses, God raised them up, in the process drawing the world to God, and they are rewarded with treasure that does not perish, because they lead others to God, are the way Abraham's descendants are blessings to the world?
          Prove you have the Apostle's gifts. Or that anyone does for that matter. Documentation?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

            Prove you have the Apostle's gifts. Or that anyone does for that matter. Documentation?
            Sure, but they are not to test God, else you will be doing what the devil was doing, asking for fireworks to be set off, just to be entertained. Works must be done to turn the ones who see them away from the world, toward God. They should not be done to boast about how powerful we are, like Moses did, when he struck the Rock, or Israel did, when she tried to show the power was in her, and she did not need God, and went out to fight the Amalekites:

            Matt 4:5Then the devil *took Him along into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, 6and he *said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written:

            ‘HE WILL GIVE HIS ANGELS ORDERS CONCERNING YOU’;

            and

            ‘ON THEIR HANDS THEY WILL LIFT YOU UP,

            SO THAT YOU DO NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’” 7Jesus said to him, “[b]On the other hand, it is written: ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’”
            Last edited by footwasher; 01-24-2021, 08:16 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

              Sure, but they are not to test God, else you will be doing what the devil was doing, asking for fireworks to be set off, just to be entertained. Works must be done to turn the ones who see them away from the world, toward God. They should not be done to boast about how powerful we are, like Moses did, when he struck the Rock, or Israel did, when she tried to show the power was in her, and she did not need God, and went out to fight the Amalekites:

              Matt 4:5Then the devil *took Him along into the holy city and had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, 6and he *said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written:

              ‘HE WILL GIVE HIS ANGELS ORDERS CONCERNING YOU’;

              and

              ‘ON THEIR HANDS THEY WILL LIFT YOU UP,

              SO THAT YOU DO NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.’” 7Jesus said to him, “[b]On the other hand, it is written: ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.’”
              All hat and no cattle?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                All hat and no cattle?
                Good response. You are right, that's what the devil would have said to Jesus!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                  Good response. You are right, that's what the devil would have said to Jesus!
                  You cannot back your claims. Jesus did.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                    You cannot back your claims. Jesus did.
                    Jesus refused to show signs gratuitously, for no purpose but to show His power. They had to be to turn people away from the world, to serve God.

                    Besides, He was very careful to attribute the One behind the signs to be God.

                    John 5.30“I can do nothing on My own. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me.

                    And parallel Scripture.


                    John 5:19So Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.

                    John 6:38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
                    Last edited by footwasher; 01-24-2021, 09:44 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                      Jesus refused to show signs gratuitously, for no purpose, but to show His power. They had to be to turn people away from the world, to serve God.

                      Besides, He was very careful to attribute the One behind the signs to be God.

                      John 5.30“I can do nothing on My own. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me.

                      And parallel Scripture.


                      John 5:19So Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.

                      John 6:38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
                      So that's your problem today? Or you cannot document your position?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                        So that's your problem today? Or you cannot document your position?
                        It's the situation everyday. No self aggrandisation. People aren't going to be saved by turning to Moses or me or any human for that matter. They will only be saved if they see God and turn to Him.


                        Joshua 2:8Before the spies lay down for the night, Rahab went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that the fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who dwell in the land are melting in fear of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the waters of the Red Seab before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites across the Jordan, whom you devoted to destruction.c 11When we heard this, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth below.



                        John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                          It's the situation everyday. No self aggrandisation. People aren't going to be saved by turning to Moses or me or any human for that matter. They will only be saved if they see God and turn to Him.


                          Joshua 2:8Before the spies lay down for the night, Rahab went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that the fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who dwell in the land are melting in fear of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the waters of the Red Seab before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites across the Jordan, whom you devoted to destruction.c 11When we heard this, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth below.



                          John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
                          All hat and no cattle.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                            All hat and no cattle.
                            On Christ, the solid Rock I stand;

                            All other ground is shifting sand,

                            All other ground is... shifting... sand.
                            Last edited by footwasher; 01-24-2021, 11:35 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                              On Christ, the solid Rock I stand;

                              All other ground is shifting sand,

                              All other ground is... shifting... sand.
                              Just that you cannot back what you say about physical miracles with evidence. Jesus did.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                                Just that you cannot back what you say about physical miracles with evidence. Jesus did.
                                Bad theology, as always! Above pupil must get a better report card, improve, do better in the future.

                                ​​John 5:19So Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.

                                John 6:38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.

                                Comment

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