The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[Dave L]

Why did God get angry with Israel for being disobedient and swear they would never enter His Rest if they without free will refused to believe? That would be like being angry with your child who you made disobedient for refusing to obey you, and being happy with Caleb, because you made him obedient.

It doesn't make sense, to disapprove and punish something you caused, and similarly, approve and reward something you also caused.

Good behaviour is only good behaviour if it is from free will. Otherwise it is only an actor reading a script and acting, or a robot spewing out what it is programmed to do. Nothing worthy of being appreciated and rewarded.

Because God loves to see righteousness, like a Gardener loves to see fruit on His trees, He created humans with free will, so real righteousness could be manifested. Otherwise He would just stick fruit on the trees, like you are teaching.

Luke 13:7And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Look! For three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?

Hebrews 6:7For ground that drinks the rain which often [g]falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and [h]close to being cursed, and [i]it ends up being burned.

Your error is so glaring its logic, that it shows your lack of comprehension of basic reasoning. Your theology is built on shifting sand.

Free will = sinful human belief in idols, even ones called Christ. Apart from God revealing Christ through the new birth, people cannot have true spiritual faith, a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

[footwasher]

Free will = sinful human belief in idols, even ones called Christ. Apart from God revealing Christ through the new birth, people cannot have true spiritual faith, a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Not logical, not Scriptural.

2 Tim 1.7For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

It's like the Scout leader saying he would give ice cream to the team members who put up the tent the fastest, and then putting up the tent for one team Himself, and taking them out for ice cream, and not helping the other team.

Whereas, through out Scripture, God always rewarded the ground that bore fruit, and punished the ground that bore thistles and thorns.

Heb 6.7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

Numbers 14.20“I have pardoned them as you requested,” the LORD replied. 21“Yet as surely as I live and as surely as the whole earth is filled with the glory of the LORD, 22not one of the men who have seen My glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness—yet have tested Me and disobeyed Me these ten times— 23not one will ever see the land that I swore to give their fathers. None of those who have treated Me with contempt will see it.

24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.

All received the Holy Spirit. But only Caleb did not test God or disobey, but remembered God's great works, allowed them to inspire him, created faith in him, so he could trust God to give his enemies into his hands, so he could enter the Kingdom and do signs through the finger of God like Moses and persuade Rahab to come out of following the world and follow God instead, thus being a blessing to the world. Exact words in the Bible.

Not, the Spirit transformed Caleb into a faith machine and he then was set up to go to heaven.

[Dave L]

Not logical, not Scriptural.

2 Tim 1.7For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

It's like the Scout leader saying he would give ice cream to the team members who put up the tent the fastest, and then putting up the tent for one team Himself, and taking them out for ice cream, and not helping the other team.

Whereas, through out Scripture, God always rewarded the ground that bore fruit, and punished the ground that bore thistles and thorns.

Heb 6.7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

Numbers 14.20“I have pardoned them as you requested,” the LORD replied. 21“Yet as surely as I live and as surely as the whole earth is filled with the glory of the LORD, 22not one of the men who have seen My glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness—yet have tested Me and disobeyed Me these ten times— 23not one will ever see the land that I swore to give their fathers. None of those who have treated Me with contempt will see it.

24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.

All received the Holy Spirit. But only Caleb did not test God or disobey, but remembered God's great works, allowed them to inspire him, created faith in him, so he could trust God to give his enemies into his hands, so he could enter the Kingdom and do signs through the finger of God like Moses and persuade Rahab to come out of following the world and follow God instead, thus being a blessing to the world. Exact words in the Bible.

Not, the Spirit transformed Caleb into a faith machine and he then was set up to go to heaven.

Nobody has free will. To claim that = you are without the sin that binds the will. You are either a slave of Satan or a slave of Christ. And you are at God's mercy to become a slave of Christ.

[footwasher]

Nobody has free will. To claim that = you are without the sin that binds the will. You are either a slave of Satan or a slave of Christ. And you are at God's mercy to become a slave of Christ.

Your fight is with Scripture, not me. It says God punishes the wicked and rewards the righteous. Your pathetic theology says God punishes some wicked and rewards some wicked. Baloney.

[Dave L]

Your fight is with Scripture, not me. It says God punishes the wicked and rewards the righteous. Your pathetic theology says God punishes some wicked and rewards some wicked. Baloney.

“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” Romans 3:10 (KJV 1900)

[footwasher]

“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” Romans 3:10 (KJV 1900)

Good grief, he is talking about types of people: Jews and Gentiles, none can boast about being righteous.

Rom 3.9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God.

The Gentiles have been boasting that their good works have brought them into God's family. The Jews have been boasting that they were chosen because they were a noble race a long time ago. Paul says NO. In the previous two chapters, Paul says the Gentiles have conscience, and the Jews have Law, but both failed to meet even those righteousness requirements. There were none righteous. Now a new covenant has arrived, with a new type of righteousness God required, not according to works, but by faith in Christ. Under the old systems, where both Jew and Gentile had the same disadvantage, to be judged by their performance, both groups failed. However, under the new covenant, there were no requirements. All it required was being faithful to Christ. Hearing and believing.

Rom 3.21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in ^h Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Upgrade from that greasy, outdated kid stuff, you square tenderfoot. The latest in theology, scientifically tested and proved, with the newest evidence found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which Luther and Calvin didn't have:

Quote (3) This brings us to the key comparison between MMT and Paul. Paul, arguably, held a
version of the same covenantal and eschatological scheme of thought as MMT; but, in his
scheme, the place taken by ‘works of Torah’ in MMT was taken by ‘faith’. Paul, like MMT,
believed (a) in a coming ‘last day’ when all would be revealed, and (b) that the verdict of that
last day could be anticipated in the present when someone displayed the appropriate marks of
covenant membership. For him, though, the appropriate marks were not ‘works’, either of the
biblical Torah or of post-biblical halakhah, but faith: more specifically, faith in the God who
raised Jesus from the dead.

https://ntwrightpage.com/2016/05/07/...ht_4qmmt_paul/

[Dave L]

Good grief, he is talking about types of people: Jews and Gentiles, none can boast about being righteous.

Rom 3.9What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God.

The Gentiles have been boasting that their good works have brought them into God's family. The Jews have been boasting that they were chosen because they were a noble race a long time ago. Paul says NO. In the previous two chapters, Paul says the Gentiles have conscience, and the Jews have Law, but both failed to meet even those righteousness requirements. There were none righteous. Now a new covenant has arrived, with a new type of righteousness God required, not according to works, but by faith in Christ. Under the old systems, where both Jew and Gentile had the same disadvantage, to be judged by their performance, both groups failed. However, under the new covenant, there were no requirements. All it required was being faithful to Christ. Hearing and believing.

Rom 3.21But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in ^h Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Upgrade from that greasy, outdated kid stuff, you square tenderfoot. The latest in theology, scientifically tested and proved, with the newest evidence found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, which Luther and Calvin didn't have:

Quote (3) This brings us to the key comparison between MMT and Paul. Paul, arguably, held a
version of the same covenantal and eschatological scheme of thought as MMT; but, in his
scheme, the place taken by ‘works of Torah’ in MMT was taken by ‘faith’. Paul, like MMT,
believed (a) in a coming ‘last day’ when all would be revealed, and (b) that the verdict of that
last day could be anticipated in the present when someone displayed the appropriate marks of
covenant membership. For him, though, the appropriate marks were not ‘works’, either of the
biblical Torah or of post-biblical halakhah, but faith: more specifically, faith in the God who
raised Jesus from the dead.

https://ntwrightpage.com/2016/05/07/...ht_4qmmt_paul/

How righteous are you? Only sinners die. do you have locks on your door? When's the last time you gave all you own to others treating them as your equal?

[brightfame52]

Christs death ensures for all whom He died, deliverance from this present evil world[Salvation] according to the Will of God !

Gal 1:4-5

⁴ Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

⁵ To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That fact Glorifies God the Father !52

[footwasher]

How righteous are you? Only sinners die. do you have locks on your door? When's the last time you gave all you own to others treating them as your equal?

Being blessings to the world is by performing signs, healing physical problems or explaining difficult Scripture, which we can do if we are in the Kingdom.

God created these problems in advance, so that we can solve them. He made people who had physical problems, and gave Scripture which were difficult to explain. We must pick up these crosses, take the risk of expecting God to raise us up, so that when He does, the world, people like Nicodemus and Rahab, are drawn to Him.

Ephesians 2:10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

......

Isaiah 45:7I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

…..

John 9:1Now as Jesus was passing by, He saw a man blind from birth, 2and His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him.

....

Joshua 2:8Before the spies lay down for the night, Rahab went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that the fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who dwell in the land are melting in fear of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the waters of the Red Seab before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites across the Jordan, whom you devoted to destruction.c 11When we heard this, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth below.


John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

....


Don't work for bread that, after eating, causes us to hunger again. Follow Jesus not because of that type of bread, but because He can perform those signs which reveal the Way to be blessings to the world, by being in the Kingdom, touched by the finger of God.

[footwasher]

Christs death ensures for all whom He died, deliverance from this present evil world[Salvation] according to the Will of God !

Gal 1:4-5

⁴ Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

⁵ To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

That fact Glorifies God the Father !52

Christ saves us not magically, by making us sinless, but by dying on the Cross so that His blood cleansed the old humanity in Adam, to create the New Man in Christ, the Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God. It is our duty to enter this new humanity, Rest, the real Promised Land, so we can be blessings to the world, through touching the finger of God:

Quote

We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

The final atonement must be simultaneously like a sheep who dies and like the high priest who presents the sacrifice. This final high priest is described in Isa. 53 as the servant of the Lord. He presents his own body as a guilt offering (Isa. 53:10) and dies (Isa. 53:9). Like a sin offering where the body of the animal is carried outside the camp, he dies outside the camp (Heb. 13:11-14). Then he will “see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand” (Isa. 53:10). He will live again. As the high priest now living he goes through the rest of the steps in the sacrificial system. That is, he presents the blood of the sacrifice, his own blood (Heb. 9:12). The blood has already been poured out on the earth as he died, cleansing the ground itself.


https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/

[brightfame52]

Christ saves us not magically, by making us sinless, but by dying on the Cross so that His blood cleansed the old humanity in Adam, to create the New Man in Christ, the Body of Christ, the Kingdom of God. It is our duty to enter this new humanity, Rest, the real Promised Land, so we can be blessings to the world, through touching the finger of God:

Quote

We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

The final atonement must be simultaneously like a sheep who dies and like the high priest who presents the sacrifice. This final high priest is described in Isa. 53 as the servant of the Lord. He presents his own body as a guilt offering (Isa. 53:10) and dies (Isa. 53:9). Like a sin offering where the body of the animal is carried outside the camp, he dies outside the camp (Heb. 13:11-14). Then he will “see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand” (Isa. 53:10). He will live again. As the high priest now living he goes through the rest of the steps in the sacrificial system. That is, he presents the blood of the sacrifice, his own blood (Heb. 9:12). The blood has already been poured out on the earth as he died, cleansing the ground itself.


https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/

Post 173 u understand it ?

[Dave L]

Being blessings to the world is by performing signs, healing physical problems or explaining difficult Scripture, which we can do if we are in the Kingdom.

God created these problems in advance, so that we can solve them. He made people who had physical problems, and gave Scripture which were difficult to explain. We must pick up these crosses, take the risk of expecting God to raise us up, so that when He does, the world, people like Nicodemus and Rahab, are drawn to Him.

Ephesians 2:10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

......

Isaiah 45:7I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.

…..

John 9:1Now as Jesus was passing by, He saw a man blind from birth, 2and His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

3Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him.

....

Joshua 2:8Before the spies lay down for the night, Rahab went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that the fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who dwell in the land are melting in fear of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the waters of the Red Seab before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites across the Jordan, whom you devoted to destruction.c 11When we heard this, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth below.


John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”

3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

....


Don't work for bread that, after eating, causes us to hunger again. Follow Jesus not because of that type of bread, but because He can perform those signs which reveal the Way to be blessings to the world, by being in the Kingdom, touched by the finger of God.

Have you ever raised the dead? Restored amputated limbs? or any of the miracles the Apostles did? Where is documented proof of your claims? Can you point to one scrap of evidence today that you actually have anything like the miracles that you preach?

[footwasher]

Post 173 u understand it ?

Yes, I understand that it is wrong!

[footwasher]

Have you ever raised the dead? Restored amputated limbs? or any of the miracles the Apostles did? Where is documented proof of your claims? Can you point to one scrap of evidence today that you actually have anything like the miracles that you preach?

Actually, I HAVE prayed for people and they became well. But what really moved them to become believers was when I explained Scripture, through the finger of God, to them.

Do ypu have physical problems? Please come near to where I live. I will come halfway and pray for you.

But if you have difficulty understanding Scripture, then we can solve your problem over the InterWeb. That is why Jesus said it was better if He went away. Paul could be led by the Spirit to write letters that opened the spiritual blindness of millions of people, over thousands of years:

John 16:7But I am telling you the truth: it is better for you that I go away, because if I do not go, the Helper will not come to you. But if I do go away, then I will send him to you.

See I just explained a very puzzling Scripture to you through the finger of God. You can do it too, if you enter the Kingdom, Rest, which is what Jesus was trying to explain:

John 6:27Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled.

There, the Spirit did it again!

[Dave L]

Actually, I HAVE prayed for people and they became well. But what really moved them to become believers was when I explained Scripture, through the finger of God, to them.

Do ypu have physical problems? Please come near to where I live. I will come halfway and pray for you.

But if you have difficulty understanding Scripture, then we can solve your problem over the InterWeb. That is why Jesus said it was better if He went away. Paul could be led by the Spirit to write letters that opened the spiritual blindness of millions of people, over thousands of years:

John 16:7But I am telling you the truth: it is better for you that I go away, because if I do not go, the Helper will not come to you. But if I do go away, then I will send him to you.

See I just explained a very puzzling Scripture to you through the finger of God. You can do it too, if you enter the Kingdom, Rest, which is what Jesus was trying to explain:

John 6:27Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled.

There, the Spirit did it again!

You are confusing the prayer of faith with the Apostle's signs and wonders. I haven't needed a doctor since the 1980s because of the prayer of Faith. But you cannot produce one example of the Apostle's signs and wonders being for today. Not one.