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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Duh, I'm quoting the NT, not the OT. Seriously, did you take your meds?
    Do you insult your kid(s) the way you insult believers? This will stunt their development and leave them challenged.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Ask yourself, how Jesus would not violate his teachings working with children in love? OT law was for the most wicked people on earth. Is your family in that category?
    Duh, I'm quoting the NT, not the OT. Seriously, did you take your meds?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Heb 12.8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
    Ask yourself, how Jesus would not violate his teachings working with children in love? OT law was for the most wicked people on earth. Is your family in that category?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    What I'm saying is that you only make clean the outside of the cup by force. Love does a better job and sets an example of Christ.
    Heb 12.8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Yes, there is a famous proverb which says children obey out of fear, adults, out of choice and old men, out of understanding.

    A bit like how children are afraid of getting a grounding, but we obey traffic lights not because we are afraid of a ticket, but because we choose to.
    What I'm saying is that you only make clean the outside of the cup by force. Love does a better job and sets an example of Christ.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    You only train your kid like a dog. He still wants to disobey but is afraid of you.
    Yes, there is a famous proverb which says children obey out of fear, adults, out of choice and old men, out of understanding.

    A bit like how children are afraid of getting a grounding, but we obey traffic lights not because we are afraid of a ticket, but because we choose to.
    Last edited by footwasher; 02-07-2021, 01:29 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    John 9.1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

    3“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

    God made a man blind from birth, so that when Jesus healed him, people would be motivated to turn to God. So the final result is a blessing.

    When I punish my child for disobeying me, he learns to listen to me. The next time I give him instructions, like not to play in traffic, he instinctively obeys me, even though he may not understand why. In the final situation, the punishment I gave him before was not a bad thing.

    So also with God.
    You only train your kid like a dog. He still wants to disobey but is afraid of you.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Scripture says God creates and sends evil. You are not familiar with scripture, or you edit it to your liking producing an idol to your liking. Here's a sample of scripture you ignore.

    “And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” 1 Kings 22:20–23 (KJV 1900)

    Is God sinning? Or using sin to judges sinners?
    John 9.1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

    3“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

    God made a man blind from birth, so that when Jesus healed him, people would be motivated to turn to God. So the final result is a blessing.

    When I punish my child for disobeying me, he learns to listen to me. The next time I give him instructions, like not to play in traffic, he instinctively obeys me, even though he may not understand why. In the final situation, the punishment I gave him before was not a bad thing.

    So also with God.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    If I said my words make you into a fool if they are true, doesn't it mean that it only makes you into a fool if they are true?

    If you didn't understand what I said about Clark in short form, here it is again:

    If Clark's words are true, then it makes God a sinner, but only if those words are true, which they obviously are not.

    'K?
    Scripture says God creates and sends evil. You are not familiar with scripture, or you edit it to your liking producing an idol to your liking. Here's a sample of scripture you ignore.

    “And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” 1 Kings 22:20–23 (KJV 1900)

    Is God sinning? Or using sin to judges sinners?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    You off to the races !
    Is English your second language?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Didn't you say Clark makes God into a sinner?
    If I said my words make you into a fool if they are true, doesn't it mean that it only makes you into a fool if they are true?

    If you didn't understand what I said about Clark in short form, here it is again:

    If Clark's words are true, then it makes God a sinner, but only if those words are true, which they obviously are not.

    'K?

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    God was pleased with Abraham, because he was loyal, faithful, agreed with God that the world was not a suitable place for those made in His image. He wanted a better country, a country where good people would live lives that was suitable for them, and having a conclusion which was meaningful, with gains that did not perish. So He promised Abraham that he would have the privilege of being a blessing to the world, make people turn to Him, because that is the condition where lives became meaningful, resulting in treasure which does not perish.


    Then God promised Abraham that He would give him that world. Abraham understood that to be a blessing to the world required for him to be in the Promised World, Rest, Kingdom of God. In that Land, the ability to make people turn to God was available, was flowing with milk and honey.


    He thought he had been given that promise, to be able to turn people to God, so he was ready to sacrifice Isaac, thinking that people would turn to God when they heard He had raised up Isaac from the dead and given him back to Abraham. But God did not allow Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, because the Kingdom of God hadn't come amongst men yet. However, He kept a place for Abraham in the Kingdom, so that together with us, he would become a blessing to the world.


    Yes, in Christ, we become blessings to the world. We become what Adam was meant to be, People of God who complete Creation, subdue the earth, tame it, turn the world to serve God.


    Rahab was subdued, and also Nicodemus. Through the finger of God. By God's work being displayed through Caleb and Jesus. By being in the Kingdom.


    See, Moses could turn Israel to follow God, because he was standing in God's presence, was together with God, like Adam. That's because even though he was sinful, he was able to be pure, and only the pure can see God, stand in His presence, and do great works through the finger of God. That's because Moses was in the cleft of the Rock, which covered him, just like Adam was in the Garden, which covered him.


    When we enter the Kingdom, we are also covered by Christ. Now we can be in God's presence, have the union with God that Jesus prayed for in John 15. We are perfected, because we are hidden in Christ.


    That is why it is so important to enter the Kingdom.


    Please enter the Kingdom, Brightfame52.
    You off to the races !

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Never said God sins. Are you on meds?
    Didn't you say Clark makes God into a sinner?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Are you saying God can sin? By whose standards?
    Never said God sins. Are you on meds?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    God is NOT evil.

    He CREATES evil and darkness, difficult situations and difficult Scripture, in advance, for Kingdom dwellers, those IN Christ, to solve:

    Ephesians 2.10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

    Paul says this is the same as Jesus doing miracles, causing Nicodemus to seek God, Caleb doing miracles, causing Rahab to seek God:


    1 Cor 14.24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

    Maybe it's even better, because Jesus went to the Father and sent the Holy Spirit. Now I can minister to ungifted people like you over the InterWeb, without coming physically to you, to show you signs.

    ​​​​​​
    We who are IN Christ are blessings to the world. All we do results in treasure in heaven, which does not perish. You are just a tourist, using up space and oxygen. All you do will rust and perish. Please, come into the Kingdom, be baptised into Christ.
    Are you saying God can sin? By whose standards?

    Leave a comment:

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