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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    Please show where you have gone right first.
    That's a child's game. If you want a good discussion, don't avoid issues, don't change the subject.

    However, if you are not mature enough to minister to me, I will forgive you and will agree to minister to you by washing your feet.

    Do you want an opportunity to show your maturity or not?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

      That's a child's game. If you want a good discussion, don't avoid issues, don't change the subject.

      However, if you are not mature enough to minister to me, I will forgive you and will agree to minister to you by washing your feet.

      Do you want an opportunity to show your maturity or not?
      You started it.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

        If you must choose to believe, it is because you don't believe.
        Correct. You move from faithless to faith.

        Do you need to choose to believe you are sitting at your computer?
        I need to choose to sit down at my computer, yes.

        Of course not. You experience it. And those who experience salvation know they are saved.
        And those who choose it receive it. All are capable of choosing, yet not all choose Christ.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

          You started it.
          No. I did not start a child's game. I asked a serious question, "What is the weakness in my argument?" when you tried to change the subject.

          No a child's game is, when I ask what is the weakness you have found in my argument, when you try to change the subject and you answer with "Answer me where you have gone right". In an adult debate, like between William Lane Craig and Shabbir Ali, they don't say, "Answer me where you have been right first, because I asked first". There is no game like that in the adult world.

          This is another attempt to change the subject.

          A sign of a person losing a discussion.

          Show some maturity and don't change the subject, and don't resort to childish tactics.
          Last edited by footwasher; 01-14-2021, 05:55 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

            Correct. You move from faithless to faith.



            I need to choose to sit down at my computer, yes.



            And those who choose it receive it. All are capable of choosing, yet not all choose Christ.
            The point is, if you experience salvation by grace, it causes you to believe. If you must choose to believe, it's because you haven't experienced salvation by grace and do not believe. You must force yourself to believe with the flesh and human faith cannot save.

            Comment


            • Another passage of scripture that Illustrates and proves that Christs death effects saving/converting results is 1 Pet 1:18-21

              18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

              19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

              20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

              21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.35

              Comment


              • Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
                Another passage of scripture that Illustrates and proves that Christs death effects saving/converting results is 1 Pet 1:18-21

                18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

                19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

                20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

                21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.35
                Apparently you cannot find any weakness in my argument.

                So let's move forward and help you get the correct conversion experience so you may possibly enter the Kingdom.

                The above text does not teach that Christ's death converts a person. What converts a person is if he hears the claim that God can be trusted to help in the process of creating faith necessary to overcome the obstacles which block entry into the Kingdom of God.

                When we believe, God gives the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit: Abraham experienced this when he was put in danger at the hands of Pharoah and King Abhimelech, and then rescued. Caleb experienced this when he was put in danger at the hands of Pharoah and food and water shortage in the wilderness, and then rescued. They were not like ground that drank rain and produced thorns and thistles. They produced faith.

                Numbers 14:22Certainly all the people who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who were disrespectful to Me see it. 24But as for My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring him into the land which he [l]entered, and his [m]descendants shall take possession of it.

                They were born again, from above, from their nobler nature, from their spiritual side. They were courageous, not cowardly like the rest of the people. The rest of the people listened to their flesh, the side of their nature which said, "Save your selves, don't worry about saving the world, being a blessing to the world, by entering the Kingdom, that's all fanciful nonsense! We can see we are going to suffer, and our children will become slaves again. God may have saved in the past, but He may not save this time. The risk is too great, and the proof is not enough".

                See, the flesh can only give birth to flesh. It needs a person to depend on his nobler side, hus spiritual side, to create faith:

                John 3:5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the spirit is spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [d]again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the spirit.”

                You really have to be born from above, from your higher nature. Like Caleb, who meta-noia-ed, changed his mindset, wrongly translated as repented, from murmuring because of listening to his below nature, forgetting God's past faithfulness, to being brave, encouraging others to have faith in God, remembering God's great works in the past, by listening to his spiritual side, wanting to be a blessing to the world, by entering the Kingdom.

                When we believe the claim, we are given the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit. When we believe this ministry, God defeats the obstacle between us and the Kingdom, and we can enter Rest:

                Gal 3:1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of [b]the Law, or by hearing [c]with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh?
                Last edited by footwasher; 01-15-2021, 09:52 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                  Apparently you cannot find any weakness in my argument.

                  So let's move forward and help you get the correct conversion experience so you may possibly enter the Kingdom.

                  The above text does not teach that Christ's death converts a person. What converts a person is if he hears the claim that God can be trusted to help in the process of creating faith necessary to overcome the obstacles which block entry into the Kingdom of God.

                  When we believe, God gives the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit: Abraham experienced this when he was put in danger at the hands of Pharoah and King Abhimelech, and then rescued. Caleb experienced this when he was put in danger at the hands of Pharoah and food and water shortage in the wilderness, and then rescued. They were not like ground that drank rain and produced thorns and thistles. They produced faith.

                  Numbers 14:22Certainly all the people who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who were disrespectful to Me see it. 24But as for My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring him into the land which he [l]entered, and his [m]descendants shall take possession of it.

                  They were born again, from above, from their nobler nature, from their spiritual side. They were courageous, not cowardly like the rest of the people. The rest of the people listened to their flesh, the side of their nature which said, "Save your selves, don't worry about saving the world, being a blessing to the world, by entering the Kingdom, that's all fanciful nonsense! We can see we are going to suffer, and our children will become slaves again. God may have saved in the past, but He may not save this time. The risk is too great, and the proof is not enough".

                  See, the flesh can only give birth to flesh. It needs a person to depend on his nobler side, hus spiritual side, to create faith:

                  John 3:5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which has been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born of the spirit is spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [d]again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the spirit.”

                  You really have to be born from above, from your higher nature. Like Caleb, who meta-noia-ed, changed his mindset, wrongly translated as repented, from murmuring because of listening to his below nature, forgetting God's past faithfulness, to being brave, encouraging others to have faith in God, remembering God's great works in the past, by listening to his spiritual side, wanting to be a blessing to the world, by entering the Kingdom.

                  When we believe the claim, we are given the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit. When we believe this ministry, God defeats the obstacle between us and the Kingdom, and we can enter Rest:

                  Gal 3:1You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of [b]the Law, or by hearing [c]with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh?
                  Post 111 you interested in discussing?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

                    Post 111 you interested in discussing?
                    Sure, I already said that what converts a person is not the death of Christ, but to be like a ground that received rain and brings forth vegetation, to see the Resurrection, and interpret it as a sign that God always protects, when we step out in faith, like Caleb stepped out to face the Amalekites and was protected, and Christ stepped out to pick up the Cross and was protected:

                    Heb 6:7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

                    See both the good ground and the bad ground received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, but only the good ground used its nobler nature to hear and believe.

                    Now you should show from post 111 how God forced the bad peepels to turn into good peepels. Let's see how far you get before you change the subject again.
                    Last edited by footwasher; 01-16-2021, 11:48 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                      Sure, I already said that what converts a person is not the death of Christ, but to be like a ground that received rain and brings forth vegetation, to see the Resurrection, and interpret it as a sign that God always protects, when we step out in faith, like Caleb stepped out to face the Amalekites and was protected, and Christ stepped out to pick up the Cross and was protected:

                      Heb 6:7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

                      See both the good ground and the bad ground received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, but only the good ground used its nobler nature to hear and believe.

                      Now you should show from post 111 how God forced the bad peepels to turn into good peepels. Let's see how far you get before you change the subject again.
                      Then we are not in agreement. I am showing how the death of Christ produces saving results.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

                        Then we are not in agreement. I am showing how the death of Christ produces saving results.
                        Actually, you're not. There's nothing in post 111 that proves the death of Christ converts people into believers. There were lots of believers before Christ died. The only problem was that they had to wait for Christ to receive what they were promised: Rest, the City of God, the Jerusalem from above:

                        Hebrews 4:8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience
                        .....

                        Hebrews 11:13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
                        ​​​​​​...

                        Hebrews 11:39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
                        ....

                        Galatians 4:26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

                        Comment


                        • Is this actually going somewhere?
                          I mean... what's the object of this exercise?

                          Is it just to battle theology, or does it actually seek to accomplish something?

                          Asking for a friend.
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Is this actually going somewhere?
                            I mean... what's the object of this exercise?

                            Is it just to battle theology, or does it actually seek to accomplish something?

                            Asking for a friend.
                            It's like this. If someone listened to the advice you gave in your church, for example, they might face this situation:


                            Matthew 7:23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; LEAVE ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.


                            The parallel would be if someone asked you to help out in getting a visa to Hong Kong and you did it for him, even using your card to pay the 20 dollar fee. You then printed out the receipt and told him to present it to the immigration control at Hong Kong. However, when you did so, they told you you needed a printout of the actual issued visa. As far as the rules were concerned, they don't know you, if you have interacted with their application protocol or not.


                            This really happened. The person involved had to go to Macau, where the visa was not required, print it out, and catch the ferry back to HK airport.


                            I think this asks for doing due diligence, doing your homework right, is important, right? Considering the consequences.

                            In other words, his advice is skimpy, wrong and dangerous. Someone needs to rectify the situation, stop him.

                            Do you know Luther was wrong? Paul wasn't teaching against works righteousness, he was teaching against the compulsory necessity to become a Jew to be saved.

                            We do need works. And the right type. Read N T Wright.

                            The top scholars, like Dr Daniel B Wallace, author of the common Greek grammar used in all seminaries, have withdrawn their criticism of the New Perspective on Paul.

                            You should get up to speed.
                            Last edited by footwasher; 01-17-2021, 12:05 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                              It's like this. If someone listened to the advice you gave in your church, for example, they might face this situation:


                              Matthew 7:23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; LEAVE ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.


                              The parallel would be if someone asked you to help out in getting a visa to Hong Kong and you did it for him, even using your card to pay the 20 dollar fee. You then printed out the receipt and told him to present it to the immigration control at Hong Kong. However, when you did so, they told you you needed a printout of the actual issued visa. As far as the rules were concerned, they don't know you, if you have interacted with their application protocol or not.


                              This really happened. The person involved had to go to Macau, where the visa was not required, print it out, and catch the ferry back to HK airport.


                              I think this asks for doing due diligence, doing your homework right, is important, right? Considering the consequences.

                              In other words, his advice is skimpy, wrong and dangerous. Someone needs to rectify the situation, stop him.

                              Do you know Luther was wrong? Paul wasn't teaching against works righteousness, he was teaching against the compulsory necessity to become a Jew to be saved.

                              We do need works. And the right type. Read N T Wright.

                              The top scholars, like Dr Daniel B Wallace, author of the common Greek grammar used in all seminaries, have withdrawn their criticism of the New Perspective on Paul.

                              You should get up to speed.
                              So, as I suspected, you're one of those "special revelation" types?
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                                So, as I suspected, you're one of those "special revelation" types?
                                No, no, gnosticism is totally different.

                                N T Wright is beating Daniel B Wallace by being better in his own field, Greek grammar! It's not special knowledge, it's old, common knowledge, done better.

                                In other words, he's beating them at their own game.
                                Last edited by footwasher; 01-17-2021, 01:17 AM.

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