Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #91
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

    That is patently false.



    Said to a people who already rejected God.

    Matt 13:15
    For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.

    And back to the fruit of IG...

    Job 23:13 But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does.

    1 Tim 2:3-4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

    And proof that men can resist the Grace of God:

    Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
    Notice it was the Government that was not willing to repent. Jesus would have gathered the citizens if not for them. It had nothing to do with salvation. It was about 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

      Matt 21:43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruit.

      Israel turns from God, God hardens their heart and sends calamity on them, if/when they repent, God restores them. That's the pattern throughout the OT.
      They must believe (be already saved by grace) before they would ever consider repenting. Do you do things you don't believe will pan out?

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Dave L View Post

        They must believe (be already saved by grace) before they would ever consider repenting. Do you do things you don't believe will pan out?
        Yes. That's called hope.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

          Yes. That's called hope.
          Faith is the substance of the thing hoped for.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Dave L View Post

            Notice it was the Government that was not willing to repent.
            No, it was the inhabitants of the city.

            Jesus would have gathered the citizens if not for them.
            Again, God's desire thwarted by unbelief. Goodbye Irresistible Grace....

            It had nothing to do with salvation. It was about 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem.
            It has everything to do with salvation. 70 AD was basically pointless to salvation. The Temple was rendered ineffective at the cross, with the rending of the veil, so the Romans just destroyed an irrelivant building.
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

              No, it was the inhabitants of the city.



              Again, God's desire thwarted by unbelief. Goodbye Irresistible Grace....



              It has everything to do with salvation. 70 AD was basically pointless to salvation. The Temple was rendered ineffective at the cross, with the rending of the veil, so the Romans just destroyed an irrelivant building.
              This had nothing to do with salvation. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 (KJV 1900)

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                Faith is the substance of the thing hoped for.
                Yeah.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                  This had nothing to do with salvation. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 (KJV 1900)
                  And just before that:

                  35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
                  36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

                  God gave Jesus EVERYTHING, did He not?

                  Matt 11:27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                    And just before that:

                    35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
                    36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.

                    God gave Jesus EVERYTHING, did He not?

                    Matt 11:27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father
                    But only the elect believe in him by grace. Do you know what grace means?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                      But only the elect believe in him by grace. Do you know what grace means?
                      The elect are all who are already saved. And because God is outside of our linear time, God foreknew would choose to believe.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                        The elect are all who are already saved. And because God is outside of our linear time, God foreknew would choose to believe.
                        Choosing to believe cannot save anyone. It is legalism and obedience (works) to a supposed law that cannot save. This is why the Law in the OT saved nobody. The truth is, nobody can grasp spiritual truth unless born-again. This is why only those saved by grace can believe in the true Christ.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                          I repeat:

                          If we obey our nobler side, our spiritual side, we will bear fruit (Gal 5:22-25).

                          “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” Galatians 5:22–25 (KJV 1900)

                          They have crucified the flesh, they, not any external force, they are now living according to their spiritual side, so they are encouraged to also walk in it. Notice, they are not advised to wait for an external force to make them walk in it, it is their own motive power which is being appealed to.

                          Please show where I have gone wrong. Don't jump to other issues till you are done here.


                          Please show where you have gone right first.

                          Comment



                          • Redeemed from the curse of the Law !

                            Those Christ died for are consequently saved, redeemed from the curse of the Law. Gal 3:13

                            13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

                            Now it tells us specifically how these believers were redeemed from the curse of the Law. Succinctly stated "being made a curse for us:" This refers to His death, its the same as when he wrote to the Church at Corinthians these words "For he hath made him to be sin for us"

                            So anyone for whom Christ died, has been redeemed from the curse of the Law.

                            So when Jesus shall say to these Matt 25:41

                            Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

                            Its absolutely impossible any of these on left hand, can be anyone Christ was made sin or a curse for !29

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                              Choosing to believe cannot save anyone.
                              Rubbish. John 3:16 is clear.

                              It is legalism and obedience (works) to a supposed law that cannot save.
                              Utterly false. Faith is not works. Belief is not works. Hope is not works.

                              This is why the Law in the OT saved nobody.
                              Neither did faith in the OT. See Hebrews "Hall of Faith". Jesus' death and resurrection provided the key to salvation, which was unavailable even to the faithful before it happened. Once the Lord arose, a person's faith in Christ was salvific.

                              The truth is, nobody can grasp spiritual truth unless born-again.
                              True, that's what faith is about. A realization that we are not enough, and that we need the Savior to save us. We trust that He is faithful to save any who come. That's pistis

                              This is why only those saved by grace can believe in the true Christ.
                              False again. One can believe in Christ even before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. See the Gentiles in Acts. The Spirit woos everyone to come to faith. We either agree or disagree. That's what love is. Not spiritual rape, forcing us to love God...
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                                Rubbish. John 3:16 is clear.



                                Utterly false. Faith is not works. Belief is not works. Hope is not works.



                                Neither did faith in the OT. See Hebrews "Hall of Faith". Jesus' death and resurrection provided the key to salvation, which was unavailable even to the faithful before it happened. Once the Lord arose, a person's faith in Christ was salvific.



                                True, that's what faith is about. A realization that we are not enough, and that we need the Savior to save us. We trust that He is faithful to save any who come. That's pistis



                                False again. One can believe in Christ even before the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. See the Gentiles in Acts. The Spirit woos everyone to come to faith. We either agree or disagree. That's what love is. Not spiritual rape, forcing us to love God...
                                If you must choose to believe, it is because you don't believe. Do you need to choose to believe you are sitting at your computer? Of course not. You experience it. And those who experience salvation know they are saved.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by brightfame52, 12-27-2020, 12:50 PM
                                171 responses
                                610 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Dave L
                                by Dave L
                                 
                                Started by Hornet, 08-31-2020, 01:22 AM
                                122 responses
                                740 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Dave L
                                by Dave L
                                 
                                Started by Hornet, 04-08-2020, 09:01 PM
                                154 responses
                                4,279 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Dave L
                                by Dave L
                                 
                                Working...
                                X