The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

[Bill the Cat]

Free will doesn't exist until after salvation.

False.

You must believe (be saved) before you would ever come to him.

Then what God desires doesn't come to pass. God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

And Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

And God wants everyone to be saved, thus He draws all men to Himself through His Spirit so none is left with an excuse of why they didn't believe.

[Dave L]

False.


Then what God desires doesn't come to pass. God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."



And God wants everyone to be saved, thus He draws all men to Himself through His Spirit so none is left with an excuse of why they didn't believe.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. But you claim this for yourself instead.

[Bill the Cat]

Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. But you claim this for yourself instead.

Nice dodge. Is God's desire irresistible or not?

[Dave L]

Nice dodge. Is God's desire irresistible or not?

Your question reflects a misunderstanding of grace. You need to understand it before you can question it.

[Bill the Cat]

Your question reflects a misunderstanding of grace. You need to understand it before you can question it.

Again, dodging the question. Is God's desire irresistible. Yes or no?

[Dave L]

Again, dodging the question. Is God's desire irresistible. Yes or no?

God controls your desires. So you cannot resist them. Some desire evil in his plan. Some desire Him, in his plan.

[Bill the Cat]

God controls your desires. So you cannot resist them. Some desire evil in his plan. Some desire Him, in his plan.

So, scripture says God desires all to be saved. Therefore, no one can resist God's desire to be saved. Therefore all are saved. Welcome to the heresy of universalism.

[Dave L]

So, scripture says God desires all to be saved. Therefore, no one can resist God's desire to be saved. Therefore all are saved. Welcome to the heresy of universalism.

He purposely spoke in parables so they could not be saved. “Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables? And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” Matthew 13:10–11 (AMP)

“These things all taken together Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, without a parable He said nothing to them.” Matthew 13:34 (AMP)

[Bill the Cat]

He purposely spoke in parables so they could not be saved.

That is patently false.

“Then the disciples came to Him and said, Why do You speak to them in parables? And He replied to them, To you it has been given to know the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” Matthew 13:10–11 (AMP)

“These things all taken together Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, without a parable He said nothing to them.” Matthew 13:34 (AMP)

Said to a people who already rejected God.

Matt 13:15

For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.

And back to the fruit of IG...

Job 23:13 But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does.

1 Tim 2:3-4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

And proof that men can resist the Grace of God:

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

[Dave L]

That is patently false.



Said to a people who already rejected God.

Matt 13:15

For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.

And back to the fruit of IG...

Job 23:13 But he is unchangeable, and who can turn him back? What he desires, that he does.

1 Tim 2:3-4 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

And proof that men can resist the Grace of God:

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

He made them reject him by using parables............

[Bill the Cat]

He made them reject him by using parables............

False. They had hardened their own hearts already, and THAT was why they could not hear or see.

13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”

15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.

[Dave L]

False. They had hardened their own hearts already, and THAT was why they could not hear or see.

13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”

15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.

“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

“But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.” Acts 19:9 (KJV 1900)

“Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” Isaiah 6:10 (KJV 1900)

“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:” Matthew 13:14 (KJV 1900)

“Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.” Matthew 13:13–16 (KJV 1900)

[Bill the Cat]

“He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

“But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.” Acts 19:9 (KJV 1900)

“Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” Isaiah 6:10 (KJV 1900)

“And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:” Matthew 13:14 (KJV 1900)

“Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.” Matthew 13:13–16 (KJV 1900)

Already addressed. These were the Jews who were already God's Children but who hardened their own hearts first, then God blinded them further in their rebellion.

[Dave L]

Already addressed. These were the Jews who were already God's Children but who hardened their own hearts first, then God blinded them further in their rebellion.

Where does it say that? Where does it say God hardened their hearts?

[Bill the Cat]

Where does it say that? Where does it say God hardened their hearts?

Matt 21:43 Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruit.

Israel turns from God, God hardens their heart and sends calamity on them, if/when they repent, God restores them. That's the pattern throughout the OT.