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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Ephesians 4
    8This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

    Comment


    • Of course, when you feed the people, you shouldn't be like Moses, or the sons of Sceva:

      Numbers 20
      10He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?”

      You should be like Jesus, in His actions and in His teachings, in the advice He gave, and give the glory, the credit, to God:

      Mark 9
      39“Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,

      John 5
      19Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
      Last edited by footwasher; 08-13-2022, 06:22 PM.

      Comment


      • In other words, don't follow me because you receive nourishment, but follow me because you see the Kingdom of God and want to find out how to get in:

        John 6
        ​​​​​26Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

          But the text says that when Abraham believed the Gospel, that the Kingdom/Land had come in the midst of men, he was led into the wilderness, experienced cross and resurrection, was put in danger and rescued from Pharoah. He learned that God could always rescue, and realised this was how the promise to be a blessing to the world would be fulfilled. He would pick up a cross every day, God would rescue, and when he was lifted up from the earth, he would draw the world to God. He really expected God to raise Isaac up from the dead:

          Heb 11
          19Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.
          ...

          But the text says that when Israel believed the Gospel, that the Kingdom/Land had come in the midst of men, she was led into the wilderness, experienced cross and resurrection, was put in danger and rescued from Pharoah, and hunger and thirst. She did not learn that God could always rescue, and realise this was how the promise to be a blessing to the world would be fulfilled. She would pick up a cross every day, God would rescue, and when she was lifted up from the earth, she would draw the world to God. But suffering scared her, and she wanted to go back to Egypt. She loved the darkness, wanted to stay on the broad, easy road, living life as safely and comfortably as she could, like us. Did not want to come into the light, living a life that resulted in treasure which did not rust and perish. Have Eternal life. Only Caleb was born again, had had a different spirit, a different mindset, meta noia-ed, change of mind, changed from a fearful follower to a courageous leader.

          Num 14
          24“But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.
          ​​​​​...

          But the text says that when Jesus believed the Gospel, that the Kingdom/Land had come in the midst of men, He was led into the wilderness, experienced cross and resurrection, was put in danger and rescued from hunger and thirst and the Devil. He learned that God could always rescue, and realised this was how the promise to be a blessing to the world would be fulfilled. He would pick up a cross every day, God would rescue, and when He was lifted up from the earth, he would draw the world to God. He learned obedience from suffering.

          John 12
          32And when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.
          ...

          But the text says that when the disciples in Acts 19 believed the Gospel, that the Kingdom/Land had come in the midst of men, they were edified by tongues, experienced cross and resurrection, were put in danger and rescued virtually. They learned that God could always rescue, and realised this was how the promise to be a blessing to the world would be fulfilled. They would pick up a cross every day, God would rescue, and when they were lifted up from the earth, they would draw the world to God. God would prepare crosses in advance for them to pick up, evil situations, darkened Scripture. When they healed the situation, explained the difficult Scripture, they would show what the Kingdom was like and draw people like Rahab, Naaman and Nicodemus to God.

          Ep 2
          10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

          Is 45
          7Evil situations, darkened Scripture, I the Lord create all these.

          Heb 5
          8Though He was the Son, He still learned obedience from suffering.

          John 9
          1Now as Jesus was passing by, He saw a man blind from birth, 2and His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

          3Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him. 4While it is daytime, we must doa the works of Him who sent Me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

          1 Cor 14
          4The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

          See how the world is drawn to God:

          Joshua 2
          8Before the spies lay down for the night, Rahab went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that the fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who dwell in the land are melting in fear of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the waters of the Red Seab before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites across the Jordan, whom you devoted to destruction.c 11When we heard this, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth below.

          John 3
          1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.

          1 Cor 14
          24But if an unbeliever or ungifted person comes in while everyone is prophesying, he will be convicted and called to account by all, 25and the secrets of his heart will be made known. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, “God is truly among you!”
          ...

          Doh! You are a teacher of Israel, and you don't know this? You need to believe the correct Gospel, really receive the Holy Spirit, experience cross and resurrection, learn obedience from suffering, be born again, be allowed to enter the Kingdom, so that you can be a blessing to the world, because in the Kingdom, where God is with you, you can pick up crosses, heal people, explain Scripture by the finger of God, and draw the world to God by revealing His light to all mankind, when you use the gift He gives you:

          As Scripture says, he ascended to heaven and gave gifts to His People.
          Now you started a long drawn out rabbit trail, just because I said life happens when the Spirit is given. Jesus said the Spirit quickens Jn 6:63


          It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

          Quickeneth here simply means gives life. When one is given life they begin to live, in this case they begin to live Spiritually.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

            Now you started a long drawn out rabbit trail, just because I said life happens when the Spirit is given. Jesus said the Spirit quickens Jn 6:63


            It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

            Quickeneth here simply means gives life. When one is given life they begin to live, in this case they begin to live Spiritually.
            You have to prove it is a rabbit trail, not correct.

            I showed you, repeatedly, from Scripture, what happens when we believe God's word, that a promised land/Kingdom has come near us, can be entered, which were also Jesus' words:

            ​​​​​Luke 11
            20But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

            Which Paul said needed to be believed, in order to receive the Holy Spirit:

            Acts 19
            4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

            Which would create faith in the hearers, if they believed:

            ​​​​​​Heb 6
            7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

            1 Cor 10
            1I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

            Even Christ had to receive the Holy Spirit, the faith creating ministry through suffering and rescue, cross and resurrection, and learn to have faith in God's ability to rescue, in order to have enough faith to be obedient, to attempt to do great works, pick up crosses every day, and finally attempt the eponymous task at Calvary.

            Heb 5
            8Although He was the Son, He still had to learn obedience from suffering

            You only gave a weak example of Scripture, which can be interpreted in zillion different ways, of what happens when we believe.

            This shows that you don't know what the Gospel is, never heard the right Gospel, therefore couldn't believe, in turn never received the Holy Spirit, like I and others in the Scripture record did.

            Besides, how do you know that you are living spiritually? What if you are behaving better because you don't want to go to hell, and you think Scripture teaches you will become a better person if you really believe and receive the Holy Spirit?

            In other words you may be trying to prove it by acting good, when in fact believing the Gospel leads to being baptised into an experience, called Moses or Christ, as 1 Cor 19 shows, drinking from Christ, which is synecdoche for cross and resurrection, suffering, and needing to learn from it, learn God always rescues, even from the most difficult problem, death, as 1 Cor 15 shows:

            ​​​​​​1 Cor 15
            3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephasa and then to the Twelve. 6After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.
            ​​​​​​
            Quote
            Instead, the aim is to get the viewer to examine himself and thereby to move him to try hard to strive to be on the narrow road. The way to everlasting life and to avoid waking up in hell, according to this video, is to try our best to be on the narrow road. Live the best life you can and maybe you will avoid hell.

            This is a sad video from one perspective, from the perspective of those who think that this is the good news of Jesus Christ. However, for those of us who believe the promise of life and hence are sure that we will never wake up in hell, we can rejoice that God has shown us the truth. And we can and should seek ways to share the promise of life with all who will listen.

            https://faithalone.org/blog/must-see...ke-up-in-hell/

            Last edited by footwasher; 08-16-2022, 10:15 PM.

            Comment


            • How do you know you are saved? What if you are only imagining you have a new life? What if people can't see you are different, like Nicodemus saw that Jesus was different, like Rahab saw that Caleb was different, had had a different spirit, was born again, so that they could have God with them, stand in God's presence, be able to do great works,, which God prepared in advance for us to do, (Ep 2.10, John 9.1-5, 1 Cor 14.23-25) like explain Scripture, with strong proofs, open spiritual eyes, open blind eyes, and bless the world, be a light guiding it back to God?

              John 3
              Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

              John 9
              1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

              3 “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. 4 As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”



              What if, instead, you are like Sproul? Who didn't know what the right Gospel was?

              Quote
              Dr. R. C. Sproul is a very articulate spokesman for the view that assurance is not certainty. A few years back he described his own struggles with assurance, and in so doing he explained his view of assurance:
              There are people in this world who are not saved, but who are convinced that they are. The presence of such people causes genuine Christians to doubt their salvation. After all, we wonder, suppose I am in that category? Suppose I am mistaken about my salvation and am really going to hell? How can I know that I am a real Christian?

              A while back I had one of those moments of acute self-awareness that we have from time to time, and suddenly the question hit me: “R.C., what if you are not one of the redeemed? What if your destiny is not heaven after all, but hell?” Let me tell you that I was flooded in my body with a chill that went from my head to the bottom of my spine. I was terrified.

              I tried to grab hold of myself. I thought, “Well, it’s a good sign that I’m worried about this. Only true Christians really care about salvation.” But then I began to take stock of my life, and I looked at my performance. My sins came pouring into my mind, and the more I looked at myself, the worse I felt. I thought, “Maybe it’s really true. Maybe I’m not saved after all.”

              I went to my room and began to read the Bible. On my knees I said, “Well, here I am. I can’t point to my obedience. There’s nothing I can offer. I can only rely on Your atonement for my sins. I can only throw myself on Your mercy.” Even then I knew that some people only flee to the Cross to escape hell, not out of a real turning to God. I could not be sure about my own heart and motivation. Then I remembered John 6:68. Jesus had been giving out hard teaching, and many of His former followers had left Him. When He asked Peter if he was also going to leave, Peter said, “Where else can I go? Only You have the words of eternal life.” In other words, Peter was also uncomfortable, but he realized that being uncomfortable with Jesus was better than any other option!




              https://faithalone.org/journal-artic...not-assurance/
              Last edited by footwasher; 08-16-2022, 10:37 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                You have to prove it is a rabbit trail, not correct.

                I showed you, repeatedly, from Scripture, what happens when we believe God's word, that a promised land/Kingdom has come near us, can be entered, which were also Jesus' words:

                ​​​​​Luke 11
                20But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

                Which Paul said needed to be believed, in order to receive the Holy Spirit:

                Acts 19
                4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the One coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

                Which would create faith in the hearers, if they believed:

                ​​​​​​Heb 6
                7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

                1 Cor 10
                1I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

                Even Christ had to receive the Holy Spirit, the faith creating ministry through suffering and rescue, cross and resurrection, and learn to have faith in God's ability to rescue, in order to have enough faith to be obedient, to attempt to do great works, pick up crosses every day, and finally attempt the eponymous task at Calvary.

                Heb 5
                8Although He was the Son, He still had to learn obedience from suffering

                You only gave a weak example of Scripture, which can be interpreted in zillion different ways, of what happens when we believe.

                This shows that you don't know what the Gospel is, never heard the right Gospel, therefore couldn't believe, in turn never received the Holy Spirit, like I and others in the Scripture record did.

                Besides, how do you know that you are living spiritually? What if you are behaving better because you don't want to go to hell, and you think Scripture teaches you will become a better person if you really believe and receive the Holy Spirit?

                In other words you may be trying to prove it by acting good, when in fact believing the Gospel leads to being baptised into an experience, called Moses or Christ, as 1 Cor 19 shows, drinking from Christ, which is synecdoche for cross and resurrection, suffering, and needing to learn from it, learn God always rescues, even from the most difficult problem, death, as 1 Cor 15 shows:

                ​​​​​​1 Cor 15
                3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephasa and then to the Twelve. 6After that, He appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one of untimely birth.
                ​​​​​​
                Quote
                Instead, the aim is to get the viewer to examine himself and thereby to move him to try hard to strive to be on the narrow road. The way to everlasting life and to avoid waking up in hell, according to this video, is to try our best to be on the narrow road. Live the best life you can and maybe you will avoid hell.

                This is a sad video from one perspective, from the perspective of those who think that this is the good news of Jesus Christ. However, for those of us who believe the promise of life and hence are sure that we will never wake up in hell, we can rejoice that God has shown us the truth. And we can and should seek ways to share the promise of life with all who will listen.

                https://faithalone.org/blog/must-see...ke-up-in-hell/
                You proving it is enough lol

                Comment


                • Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

                  You proving it is enough lol
                  Glad you believe it is enough proof of a correct understanding. Now make haste to enter the Kingdom, by building up your faith, by drinking from the Rock, by believing that the Kingdom can be entered if you have the right amount of faith.

                  If after you see the explanation of Scripture, done with the help of the finger of God, you still don't believe, you'll be like those who did not have enough oil for their lamps, or the right wedding garments required to stay in the wedding hall.

                  Matt 11
                  21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
                  Last edited by footwasher; 08-19-2022, 02:09 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                    Glad you believe it is enough proof of a correct understanding. Now make haste to enter the Kingdom, by building up your faith, by drinking from the Rock, by believing that the Kingdom can be entered if you have the right amount of faith.

                    If after you see the explanation of Scripture, done with the help of the finger of God, you still don't believe, you'll be like those who did not have enough oil for their lamps, or the right wedding garments required to stay in the wedding hall.

                    Matt 11
                    21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
                    Glad you admit that what you posted proves its a long rabbit trail

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

                      Glad you admit that what you posted proves its a long rabbit trail
                      Okay, so it seems you're still not convinced.

                      The Urban dictionary defines it as rabbit trail: veering off subject or of the point of the conversation. A story or explanation leading nowhere. making statements with no real purpose just for the sake of stating it.
                      No problem, it just gives me more opportunity to prove you wrong with short explanations.

                      You said that the spirit quickens, implying that the Holy Spirit is like a lightning bolt that charges your battery.

                      Would you agree that what Jesus meant is that His WORDS contained life?

                      That His explanations of Scripture were like the miracles that God did in the Exodus wilderness, that caused Caleb to be born again?
                      Last edited by footwasher; 08-20-2022, 05:29 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Let's be clear. You've made unfound accusation that the posts were rabbit trails. Long explanations with off topic additions created to confuse. They are long, but NOT off topic.

                        We are now concentrating on what 'the spirit quicken' means.

                        You will be given an explanation only on my this topic and it will be short and simple. It can't be misunderstood.

                        If you refuse it, it is not because it is complicated, requiring high IQ. If you refuse it, it is because you want to establish a righteousness of your own, like Chorazin and Bethsaida, who just wanted the fulfilment because they said the Scripture promised it to the chosen, the seeds of Abraham.

                        It will prove you just want to stay with your own theology, and not what Scripture really teaches, seen with reason, not stubbornness.

                        Short or long explanations, they still show the same information. Don't reject both:

                        Matt 11
                        17"We played the flute, but you would not dance! We sang a funeral song, but you would not mourn!"



                        20Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. e For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

                        Comment


                        • John 6
                          63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

                          John 6.25-63 is about how the crowd misunderstood what Jesus was doing.

                          What did they misunderstand?

                          Comment


                          • Both Faith and Repentance are the fruit of Christs Death and our reconciliation to Him. All for whom He died have been reconciled to God Rom 5:10

                            10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

                            So that reconciliation will be manifested by us returning to God, which entails Faith and Repentance. Peter writes of that here 1 Pet 2:24-25

                            24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

                            25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

                            The word returned here is the word epistrephō:

                            And its in the passive voice,
                            1. to cause to return, to bring back
                              1. to the love and obedience of God
                              2. to the love for the children
                              3. to love wisdom and righteousness

                            This is describing our conversion in Faith and repentance towards God. The saving death of Christ is responsible for our turning to God.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
                              Both Faith and Repentance are the fruit of Christs Death and our reconciliation to Him. All for whom He died have been reconciled to God Rom 5:10

                              10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

                              So that reconciliation will be manifested by us returning to God, which entails Faith and Repentance. Peter writes of that here 1 Pet 2:24-25

                              24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

                              25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

                              The word returned here is the word epistrephō:

                              And its in the passive voice,
                              1. to cause to return, to bring back
                                1. to the love and obedience of God
                                2. to the love for the children
                                3. to love wisdom and righteousness

                              This is describing our conversion in Faith and repentance towards God. The saving death of Christ is responsible for our turning to God.
                              Unable to answer my question? ;)

                              Comment


                              • The results of the saving death of Christ is redemptive and so it effects the gathering of all Gods chosen people from around the world Ps 107:1-3

                                O give thanks unto the Lord, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

                                2 Let the redeemed of the Lord say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;

                                3 And gathered them out of the lands, from the east, and from the west, from the north, and from the south.

                                Remember the high priest words in Jn 11 how that Christ should die and gather the children of God scattered abroad, and not just from the nation israel ? Jn 11:50-52

                                50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

                                51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

                                52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

                                This gathering together of the people of God is the fruit and success of the redemptive , saving death of Christ.25

                                Comment

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