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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    I believe my experience is typical throughout scripture. That it happens apart from the human will causing the will to react. People call it "supernaturalism" in contrast to "naturalism" which has no supernatural element.
    But Scripture says we receive the Holy Spirit by hearing and believing. The text says Israel received the Gospel just like we did, and believed and drank from the Rock, received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, which they needed to profit from, like ground drinking rain. However, not many of them did respond well, had a different spirit, was born again, like Caleb, and only a few entered the Kingdom of God.

    So what did you hear?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

      Not !
      Won't or can't?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by footwasher View Post

        But Scripture says we receive the Holy Spirit by hearing and believing. The text says Israel received the Gospel just like we did, and believed and drank from the Rock, received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, which they needed to profit from, like ground drinking rain. However, not many of them did respond well, had a different spirit, was born again, like Caleb, and only a few entered the Kingdom of God.

        So what did you hear?
        I heard a form of the gospel many times as a kid. So possibly this corresponds to your beliefs. But my experience aligns with scripture when understood Calvinistically. I didn't know anything about Calvinism until years later. So the churches I attended always provoked a conflict in me. It stemmed from being taught Arminian beliefs after having a Calvinistic experience. Years later I was in a Church where they were teaching against "Limited Atonement". They defined it before teaching against it. That was the first time I ever heard Calvinism defined and finally knew what happened to me. I dropped out of the church and began an independent study of the doctrines of grace.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Dave L View Post

          I heard a form of the gospel many times as a kid. So possibly this corresponds to your beliefs. But my experience aligns with scripture when understood Calvinistically. I didn't know anything about Calvinism until years later. So the churches I attended always provoked a conflict in me. It stemmed from being taught Arminian beliefs after having a Calvinistic experience. Years later I was in a Church where they were teaching against "Limited Atonement". They defined it before teaching against it. That was the first time I ever heard Calvinism defined and finally knew what happened to me. I dropped out of the church and began an independent study of the doctrines of grace.
          Not just Israel, even Abraham received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit AFTER believing:

          Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit(E) by the works of the law,(F) or by believing what you heard?(G)3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a]4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles(H) among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?(I)6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c](J)

          In other words, Abraham heard the Gospel, believed, and experienced the Spirit creating a cross, and rescuing him, in the incident of being threatened by King Abhimelech and Pharoah. After seeing the rescues, Abraham understood how he would be a blessing to the world.


          Scripture says God made problems, like sicknesses and difficult puzzles, so that when we solved them, by the finger of God, people would see God was with us:

          Ep 2:10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
          ....

          Isaiah 45:7I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
          …..

          John 9:1Now as Jesus was passing by, He saw a man blind from birth, 2and His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
          ​​​​​​
          3Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him.

          ……..
          John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
          .....

          Luke 11:20But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
          .......

          That's why we have to pick up our crosses every day, so that when we are raised up from the earth, we will draw the world to God, which can only happen if we enter Rest:

          Heb 4:6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying [c]through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

          “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

          DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.” 8For if [d]Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

          Only then can we do things like heal sicknesses or explain difficult Scripture, showing the great works of God in solving the problems, in raising us up from the earth, after we pick up the cross.


          So when he was tested for entering the Kingdom, he passed.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by footwasher View Post

            Not just Israel, even Abraham received the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit AFTER believing:

            Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit(E) by the works of the law,(F) or by believing what you heard?(G)3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a]4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles(H) among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?(I)6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c](J)

            In other words, Abraham heard the Gospel, believed, and experienced the Spirit creating a cross, and rescuing him, in the incident of being threatened by King Abhimelech and Pharoah. After seeing the rescues, Abraham understood how he would be a blessing to the world.


            Scripture says God made problems, like sicknesses and difficult puzzles, so that when we solved them, by the finger of God, people would see God was with us:

            Ep 2:10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
            ....

            Isaiah 45:7I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
            …..

            John 9:1Now as Jesus was passing by, He saw a man blind from birth, 2and His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
            ​​​​​​
            3Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him.

            ……..
            John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a leader of the Jews. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs You are doing if God were not with him.”
            .....

            Luke 11:20But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
            .......

            That's why we have to pick up our crosses every day, so that when we are raised up from the earth, we will draw the world to God, which can only happen if we enter Rest:

            Heb 4:6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying [c]through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

            “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

            DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.” 8For if [d]Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

            Only then can we do things like heal sicknesses or explain difficult Scripture, showing the great works of God in solving the problems, in raising us up from the earth, after we pick up the cross.


            So when he was tested for entering the Kingdom, he passed.
            A person must first believe or they would ignore the message. It proves God saves people so they can believe. If a person must choose to believe it is because they lack the salvation experience and must force themselves to gamble that the gospel might be true.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Dave L View Post

              A person must first believe or they would ignore the message. It proves God saves people so they can believe. If a person must choose to believe it is because they lack the salvation experience and must force themselves to gamble that the gospel might be true.
              Acts 17:26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

              But Scripture says He reaches out to every person, telling them they lived a terrible life, exploiting each other, for gains that rusted and perished. He gave Joseph a dream, which set off a chain of events, that led to Israel's slavery in Egypt, which was nothing but a magnified version of the life they led with Jacob in Canaan, hurting each other.

              They admitted that this life was not for them, they felt like foreigners in it, and they cried out to God, because God had promised Abraham that He could be trusted to help Israel lead a life with treasure in heaven, and God was happy to be their God, and gave them the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, who created problems like shortages in the desert and rescued them, to build up their faith, needed to enter Rest, because in the Kingdom, they would be drawing the world to them when they picked up crosses and were raised up.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                Acts 17:26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

                But Scripture says He reaches out to every person, telling them they lived a terrible life, exploiting each other, for gains that rusted and perished. He gave Joseph a dream, which set off a chain of events, that led to Israel's slavery in Egypt, which was nothing but a magnified version of the life they led with Jacob in Canaan, hurting each other.

                They admitted that this life was not for them, they felt like foreigners in it, and they cried out to God, because God had promised Abraham that He could be trusted to help Israel lead a life with treasure in heaven, and God was happy to be their God, and gave them the faith creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, who created problems like shortages in the desert and rescued them, to build up their faith, needed to enter Rest, because in the Kingdom, they would be drawing the world to them when they picked up crosses and were raised up.
                Don't you see based on Romans 1 this only makes them inexcusable and more liable to punishment? If God created someone to do this or that and made it as simple as can be, and they reject him, how bad off are they? Notice; “And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

                faith works by love, and apart from the new birth, you do not have either.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                  Don't you see based on Romans 1 this only makes them inexcusable and more liable to punishment? If God created someone to do this or that and made it as simple as can be, and they reject him, how bad off are they? Notice; “And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

                  faith works by love, and apart from the new birth, you do not have either.
                  Please explain about Romans 1.

                  If you yourself haven't received the Holy Spirit, it means you haven't heard the correct Gospel. Please check what Gospel you heard.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                    Please explain about Romans 1.

                    If you yourself haven't received the Holy Spirit, it means you haven't heard the correct Gospel. Please check what Gospel you heard.
                    God gave me the Holy Spirit which caused me to believe in Christ. It was an experience that caused me to believe. Romans 1 shows the wickedness of those in close proximity to God that meet with severe judgement in rejecting him. Proving only those he gives the Spirit to will believe and live a Holy Life.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Christs blood/Death converts them He died for, His Church or Sheep into a kingdom of priests Rev 1:5-6

                      5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

                      6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 18

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                        God gave me the Holy Spirit which caused me to believe in Christ. It was an experience that caused me to believe. Romans 1 shows the wickedness of those in close proximity to God that meet with severe judgement in rejecting him. Proving only those he gives the Spirit to will believe and live a Holy Life.
                        But Scripture says the Holy Spirit is given only after we hear and believe.

                        And Romans 1 teaches that those who REJECT God are given over to a sinful life:

                        Romans 1:21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

                        24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
                          Christs blood/Death converts them He died for, His Church or Sheep into a kingdom of priests Rev 1:5-6

                          5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

                          6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 18
                          Cannot or Will not?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                            Cannot or Will not?
                            “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

                            “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900)

                            “Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.” John 14:17 (KJV 1900)

                            “But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;” 1 Corinthians 1:23 (KJV 1900)

                            etc., etc

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                              But Scripture says the Holy Spirit is given only after we hear and believe.

                              And Romans 1 teaches that those who REJECT God are given over to a sinful life:

                              Romans 1:21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

                              24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
                              Faith comes from having the Holy Spirit. It takes a miracle to save sinners. You don't choose anything but a false Christ if God leaves it up to you.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                                Faith comes from having the Holy Spirit. It takes a miracle to save sinners. You don't choose anything but a false Christ if God leaves it up to you.
                                So you admit you're wrong in saying Romans 1 teaches all deserve to be condemned because they are evil. The only ones who are condemned are the ones who reject Him. And it's not because they have not been transformed by God. It's because, on their own volition, they refused to come out of the darkness, because they wanted to take the broad path. Those who hated the darkness came to the light.

                                Rom 1:5But [f]because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; 8but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation.

                                God gave them the choice, they chose to do good, and this was the true Christ, and earned them eternal life.
                                Last edited by footwasher; 01-10-2021, 07:51 AM.

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