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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    Do you want to discuss the post or not sir ?
    I am telling you something that you don't agree, that the text is not literal.

    For example, you may read that when we hear the Gospel with faith, we will receive the Holy Spirit. You conclude that:

    1. We will 'feel' better
    2. We will go to heaven

    That's not true. What's true is:

    1. We will be led into the wilderness
    2. We will experience suffering
    3. We will be rescued
    4. We must learn obedience (hear with faith, to enter the Kingdom)

    It happened to Abraham, Caleb and even Jesus. The bottomline, they experienced faith strengthening experiences. But Israel refused to be convinced. They were not able to enter Rest, the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham, to be blessings to the world, by manifesting signs that showed God was with them.

    Heb 5.8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

    Even the believers in Acts 19 experienced faith strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit, tongues that edify self.

    How can I discuss stuff with people who believe in literal, simplistic, meanings? The writers gave simple outlines, because they were there, they could expand, unpack their outlines.
    Last edited by footwasher; 07-20-2021, 10:04 PM.

    Comment


    • The positive effect of Christ dying, giving of Himself, or offering of Himself for those He did for, is actual absolute redemption from all iniquity Titus 2:14

      14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

      The word that, the conjunction hina which means:

      in order that, so that, in order that (denoting the purpose or the result 96

      So His giving of Himself produces redemptive results, which God purposed, one such result was redeem them from all iniquity, that's Salvation right there !

      This was promised in the OT
      Ps 130:8

      And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities. The Israel here is not physical national israel, its Spiritual Israel the Church as seen in Titus 2:14

      In other words the promise of Ps 130:8 found its fulfillment in Christ and the Church, and so its a sure result of Christ redeeming death !

      Comment


      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

        Correction. I'm unorthodox, not conforming to the majority view. But the Reformation did not conform to the majority view either. And the New Reformation, of which the New Perspective is one aspect, doesn't conform either.

        However, we are Scripturally sound. Confirmed by how the majority view cannot stand against the reformations' mission to form Scripturally based views.

        If you think different, prove it. It does need someone with substance, though.
        Are you claiming that Christ actually sets us free from sin, rather than just the penalty for sin - and in this lifetime even? Surely not.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          Are you claiming that Christ actually sets us free from sin, rather than just the penalty for sin - and in this lifetime even? Surely not.
          What plan of God was ruined?

          God loves righteousness, like a Gardener loves fruitful plants, so He devised a plan to see righteousness expressed. He put man in a garden, where, because he was not knowing good from evil, he was without sin. Minors are never found guilty in a court of law because they are not competent, nor are the insane. They aren't responsible for their actions because they don't have the capacity to recognise right from wrong. In fact, the frontal lobes of a teenager's brain which are responsible for making correct judgments are not fully developed. That's why teens keep doing or saying silly things. We think they are awkward, but it's not their fault. They don't know better.

          The reason Adam had to be treated as sinless (he actually did or thought sinful things, they were just not counted against him, for the reason stated before) is that he needed to be in union with God. God made the world untamed, so that He and Adam could subdue it together. This was a project that would express righteousness, just as successfully baking a cake with our mothers were symptoms of harmony and cooperation in the family. As long as progress was being made, creation was being subdued, you could conclude that Adam was being righteous (NOT EATING FROM THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL!), and also conclude God's plan was working. Adam's disobedience led to the plan being ruined.

          God's solution to the problem
          How can God make humanity able to be in union with Him again, signifying righteousness expressed (being what God wants)? Only the pure can see God, can ascend the holy mountain.

          We saw in the Garden God kept Adam innocent by commanding him to hold back from gaining the knowledge of good and evil. So even if he did or thought something wrong, which the record shows he did, he would be sinless. The law was powerless against those who are not responsible for their actions.

          Somehow, the law had to be neutralised again.

          Quote
          We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

          https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/
          ...

          As we can see, God shows how he plans to neutralise law again, in the type shown in Scripture. The death of the Administrator of the law releases the lawbreaker from the force of the law.

          Imagine the President passing a law stating it was illegal to step out without an N95 mask. Suppose he fails to gain a second term. The failure to remain an administrator leads to the danger of his law becoming powerless. The next administration can revoke the law. What was illegal, not wearing a mask, has now become legal. The law became neutralised at the disappearance of the Law Giver.


          When God gave up His Son as a sacrifice, the Law Giver was made to disappear.


          2 Cor 5.17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: a The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

          Sin no longer has power over the People of God, those IN Christ:

          Where there is no law, there is no transgression (sin). Rom 4.15

          Also
          Romans 5:13
          For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law.
          Last edited by footwasher; 07-22-2021, 01:50 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

            Sin no longer has power over the People of God, those IN Christ:

            Where there is no law, there is no transgression (sin). Rom 4.15
            ? 1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2 explicitly state that there is a law of Christ. But your post doesn't address the issue that I raised:

            Are you claiming that Christ actually sets us free from sin, rather than just the penalty for sin - and in this lifetime even?
            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              ? 1 Cor 9:21; Gal 6:2 explicitly state that there is a law of Christ. But your post doesn't address the issue that I raised:

              Are you claiming that Christ actually sets us free from sin, rather than just the penalty for sin - and in this lifetime even?
              The law of Christ is to be loyal to him, unlike what Jews are under, Torah, and what Gentiles are under, conscience.

              The Atonement frees us from sin, in the sense that where there is no law, there is no sin.

              Sin is the obstruction to union with God. It no longer exists because of the death of the law giver.

              Of course, the penalty of sin is death, and that has been taken away, too. Scholars say that since Adam didn't immediately die, but was separated from God, death is separation from God. Which is correct: the ruining of God's plan meant our lives are futile. The results of our existence rust and perish, don't remain.

              Comment


              • The harvest of Christ's Death. Peace, the outcome of the cross. We believe that the Savior's finished work has rendered our[Gods Elect] damnation impossible, and our salvation certain,99

                Comment


                • If Christ died for our sins according to the scripture, the following things are true:

                  That we were sinners dead in sin without hope, and could do nothing to save ourselves. Matt 1:21; Eph 2:12


                  t means that God has chosen us in Christ Jesus before the foundation Eph 1:4 and wherein Grace was given to us in Him for the purpose of saving 2 Tim 1:9

                  It means that God has forgiven us all our sins and will not never charge them to us, lay them to our account ! Rom 4; 8;

                  If Christ died for us we have the Righteousness of God through Christ charged to us 2 Cor 5:21; Rom 4106

                  If Christ died for us, His redemptive death secured our salvation from the curse of the law. Gal 3:13

                  If Christ died for us, we shall be given Spiritual life by the Spirit Gal 4:4-6

                  If Christ died for us, God will send to us the Gospel of our salvation. Eph 1:13; 2 Thess 2:13-14

                  If Christ died for us, God will preserve us unto eternal glory ! 2 Tim 4:18

                  Comment


                  • What religionist are blind to as it pertains to the Death of Christ and its saving effects, is that Christ death procured life, both Spiritual and Eternal for them He died for. This Life is given, applied to them He died for by the Spirit, so by His death He gives life to the world Jn 6:33119

                    For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

                    Life here is Spiritual and is imparted by the Spirit in Honor of His Saving Death !

                    Comment


                    • The Scriptures declare of the objective and outcome of Christ’s death, in the most outright and positive terms: "When enemies, we were reconciled to God, by the death of his Son, and shall much more be saved by his life," Romans 5:10. "He died for us, that we should live together with him," 1 Thess. 5: 10. "God hath appointed us to obtain salvation by Jesus Christ,"154

                      His death effects that we shall be saved by His Life [conversion] and that we shall live together with Him and obtain Salvation.

                      If we dont believe this, we certainly sell the effects of His death short, to our shame !

                      Comment


                      • Three things result from the death of Christ, for all whom He died, which if they dont occur in our life, its obvious Christ didnt die for us.

                        #1 We are reconciled to God Rom 5:10

                        10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

                        #2 We were spiritually healed Isa 53:5

                        5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. CP 1 Pet 2:24

                        #3 We have peace with God
                        Isa 53:5

                        5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

                        Col 1:20

                        And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

                        Comment

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