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Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Are you Pentecostal?
    The Bible is Pentecostal.

    Your Pastor sending you out on door to door evangelism, without giving you the power to prise people out of the world/Egypt, is like you going to a gunfight with a knife:

    Exodus 4:1¶Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen fnto what I say? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’”

    God made sickness and hard to understand Scripture, so that you can solve them, and motivate people to come out of Egypt:

    Ephesians 2:10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

    Isaiah 45:77The One forming light and creating darkness,
    Causing well-being and creating calamity;
    I am the LORD who does all these.

    John 9:1As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
    2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
    3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
    4“We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
    5“While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

    It's quite clear you aren't in the Kingdom.
    Last edited by footwasher; 01-19-2021, 02:47 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Jesus describes the marks of those in the Kingdom as being able to do signs through the finger of God, something Nicodemus confirmed:

    John 3.2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these fnsigns that You do unless God is with him.

    So what signs are you able to perform?
    Are you Pentecostal?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    The kingdom arrived with Jesus as Daniel said, in the times of the ancient Roman Empire. Only the born-again can see it and enter it. Premillennialism is a false Pharisee doctrine that will never be.
    Jesus describes the marks of those in the Kingdom as being able to do signs through the finger of God, something Nicodemus confirmed:

    John 3.2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these fnsigns that You do unless God is with him.

    So what signs are you able to perform?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Do you agree that the Kingdom of God is available in this present life, which calls for us to enter it now, so that we can through the finger of God, be a blessing to the world?

    Luke 11:20But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Heb 4:6Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience, 7God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.
    The kingdom arrived with Jesus as Daniel said, in the times of the ancient Roman Empire. Only the born-again can see it and enter it. Premillennialism is a false Pharisee doctrine that will never be.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Do you know most reject Christ's gospel of the kingdom today and side with the Pharisees believing in their pre-millennial kingdom?
    Do you agree that the Kingdom of God is available in this present life, which calls for us to enter it now, so that we can through the finger of God, be a blessing to the world?

    Luke 11:20But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Heb 4:6Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience, 7God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    They agree that the Gospel is not about going to heaven. It's about being a blessing and leading a purposeful life resulting in treasure that does not perish.

    It will be interesting if you ask what the Gospel is in the N T Wright group or the TWeb Group in Facebook where others like me are posting.
    Do you know most reject Christ's gospel of the kingdom today and side with the Pharisees believing in their pre-millennial kingdom?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    You are in safe hands with Poythress and Frame.
    They agree that the Gospel is not about going to heaven. It's about being a blessing and leading a purposeful life resulting in treasure that does not perish.

    It will be interesting if you ask what the Gospel is in the N T Wright group or the TWeb Group in Facebook where others like me are posting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    So you agree that the Gospel is the news that the Kingdom of God was coming amongst men.

    This must be entered through hearing the ministry of the Holy Spirit, to believe God will always protect, so that our faith is strengthened, so we will pass the test, when we hear His voice:

    Hebrews 3:7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

    8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
    AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

    9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
    AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

    10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
    AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
    AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

    11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
    ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

    It's very important to enter Rest. This is the situation where we will, through the finger of God, pick up crosses and be raised up, and draw the world to God.

    This is how we can be blessings to the world, by lighting their path back to God. This is why after promising Abraham that his descendants would be a blessing to the world, He promised also to give him land, the way they could be that blessing, the Way that Adam could turn Creation to serve God, by being in the Garden.

    You can see that John Frame and Vern Poythress benefited from the document evidence that shows the Land was the old humanity in Adam, cleansed by the blood of Christ, to form the New Man in Christ, the Body of Christ. I can try to show you from Talmud how this idea was taught by the Jewish sages, but getting that link is a bit tough. We will see.

    Anyway, please remember our idea that the Biblical material is complicated, needing careful study, by ALL God's followers, both Calvinists and others, because we all want to have the right information about how to be pleasing to God, who did so much for us. Let's not jump to conclusions about Him, even though our intentions are to give Him praise.

    You want to glorify God by focusing on His power, He can do everything.

    I want to glorify God by focusing on His love, He gave us the opportunity to choose, because real love for Him can only be manifested by freedom to choose.

    After all, the Bible says:

    1 Cor 13:13
    But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    You are in safe hands with Poythress and Frame.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    You might do well to read as much as you can from Vern Poythress and John Frame. They are Calvinists who know more than most.
    So you agree that the Gospel is the news that the Kingdom of God was coming amongst men.

    This must be entered through hearing the ministry of the Holy Spirit, to believe God will always protect, so that our faith is strengthened, so we will pass the test, when we hear His voice:

    Hebrews 3:7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

    8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
    AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

    9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
    AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

    10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
    AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
    AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

    11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
    ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

    It's very important to enter Rest. This is the situation where we will, through the finger of God, pick up crosses and be raised up, and draw the world to God.

    This is how we can be blessings to the world, by lighting their path back to God. This is why after promising Abraham that his descendants would be a blessing to the world, He promised also to give him land, the way they could be that blessing, the Way that Adam could turn Creation to serve God, by being in the Garden.

    You can see that John Frame and Vern Poythress benefited from the document evidence that shows the Land was the old humanity in Adam, cleansed by the blood of Christ, to form the New Man in Christ, the Body of Christ. I can try to show you from Talmud how this idea was taught by the Jewish sages, but getting that link is a bit tough. We will see.

    Anyway, please remember our idea that the Biblical material is complicated, needing careful study, by ALL God's followers, both Calvinists and others, because we all want to have the right information about how to be pleasing to God, who did so much for us. Let's not jump to conclusions about Him, even though our intentions are to give Him praise.

    You want to glorify God by focusing on His power, He can do everything.

    I want to glorify God by focusing on His love, He gave us the opportunity to choose, because real love for Him can only be manifested by freedom to choose.

    After all, the Bible says:

    1 Cor 13:13
    But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Hey, are you also brightflame52? Haha!

    Actually, God's plan is not to put man into Heaven. If so, He would have just made Man into an angel. God made Man because He loves righteousness being produced, just like gardeners love to see fruit on their trees. He made Creation half completed so that through righteousness, humanity would subdue Creation. In other words, if you see a tame horse or a tame dog, you know that humanity has manifested righteousness. Man made Creation useful to God by staying in the Garden, where he could be in union with God, what Jesus prayed for, so that through the finger of God, Creation would be tamed. You can see how Nicodemus was made useful to God when he saw the signs performed through the finger of God: he saw that God was with Jesus, the Kingdom of God had come amongst men. The Kingdom is like the cleft in the Rock, that protected Moses from the holy, sin burning fire of God.

    So the good news is that the Kingdom of God was approaching, the Promised Land was almost ready to be given to the saints of the past as well as during Christ's days:

    Quote

    We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

    The final atonement must be simultaneously like a sheep who dies and like the high priest who presents the sacrifice. This final high priest is described in Isa. 53 as the servant of the Lord. He presents his own body as a guilt offering (Isa. 53:10) and dies (Isa. 53:9). Like a sin offering where the body of the animal is carried outside the camp, he dies outside the camp (Heb. 13:11-14). Then he will “see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand” (Isa. 53:10). He will live again. As the high priest now living he goes through the rest of the steps in the sacrificial system. That is, he presents the blood of the sacrifice, his own blood (Heb. 9:12). The blood has already been poured out on the earth as he died, cleansing the ground itself.


    https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/
    You might do well to read as much as you can from Vern Poythress and John Frame. They are Calvinists who know more than most.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    They had faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Did they receive the promises in heaven? Abraham believed Canaan was a symbol of heaven.
    This is a good example of misunderstanding the text because we do not know what the historical context was. Here our old TWeb Forum member, Tercel, who is a lexicographer, is an expert in Greek, and has published scholarly books, writes about 'faith':

    Quote
    So, an example of how the Patron-Client system can be relevant to Biblical interpretation is Hebrews 11:1.
    "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (NRSV)
    That is a rather horrible translation.

    The words "faith" (faithfulness) and "hoped" (expected), are technical terms in the Patron-Client system. As noted before, "faithfulness" denotes the client's loyalty to their patron (and also the patron's loyalty to the client). "Expect" denotes the hope of future favours. A client could validly expect favours from their Patron if they had been faithful to their Patron and served them well. Thus, in the first half of the verse we actually just have a basic statement about how the Patron-Client system works: If you are faithful you can expect favours. That's it. It's a summary of how a part of their every-day life society worked. The second half of the verse is just saying the same thing a different way: Our faithfulness testifies that we will receive favours that we haven't yet gotten (that we do not yet "see").

    Historically this verse has been a minefield for people arguing over the definiton of faithfulness. A huge amount of stuff has been written trying to nail down precisely what each of the words in the sentence meant in an effort to get a precise definition of "faith" out of it. (Unfortunately this didn't work too well as a few of the words in the sentence have a variety of translation possibilities) But as a result of these efforts a lot of people are convinced that the Bible here defines faith as belief in things we can't see. As a result of theologians' sterling efforts over the centuries in mining the bible for sentences such as this one they have had great fun in formulating exactly what it means to have "faith". "Faith" had become an almost-magical word, set apart from everyday life.

    That's one of the reasons, I suspect, that theologians have been relatively slow to pick up on the findings of the social sciences. The discovery of how the word "faithfulness" was actually used in the day-to-day life of the first century AD Mediterranean world has made hundreds of years of theological discussions worthless, and a lot of people don't like to let mere facts or evidence get in the way of their ideas and traditions. [Maybe I'm being too harsh, after all, the first book on the subject of linking Social Sciences with NT exegesis was only in 1981, and it was pretty badly written]

    Anyway, the take home lesson is:
    Next time you're reading the bible and you see the words "faith" or "belief" read "faithfulness" instead and think "Patron-Client system = faithfulness repaid with favours". (Of course the result won't make much sense because it won't fit with how the translators have translated the rest of the sentence)

    A great rule to keep in mind is this: Faithfulness is targeted at people, belief is targeted at ideas. You can be committed to a person, or committed to an idea. But talking about faithfulness to an idea, or belief in a person is nonsense.

    http://theogeek.blogspot.com/2006/03...s-111.html?m=0

    If you have trouble understanding that quote, we can discuss and clarify what it means. At the least, you should understand that the Bible is a very complicated book, it needs slow and careful study.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    What do you want it to be?
    Hey, are you also brightflame52? Haha!

    Actually, God's plan is not to put man into Heaven. If so, He would have just made Man into an angel. God made Man because He loves righteousness being produced, just like gardeners love to see fruit on their trees. He made Creation half completed so that through righteousness, humanity would subdue Creation. In other words, if you see a tame horse or a tame dog, you know that humanity has manifested righteousness. Man made Creation useful to God by staying in the Garden, where he could be in union with God, what Jesus prayed for, so that through the finger of God, Creation would be tamed. You can see how Nicodemus was made useful to God when he saw the signs performed through the finger of God: he saw that God was with Jesus, the Kingdom of God had come amongst men. The Kingdom is like the cleft in the Rock, that protected Moses from the holy, sin burning fire of God.

    So the good news is that the Kingdom of God was approaching, the Promised Land was almost ready to be given to the saints of the past as well as during Christ's days:

    Quote

    We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

    The final atonement must be simultaneously like a sheep who dies and like the high priest who presents the sacrifice. This final high priest is described in Isa. 53 as the servant of the Lord. He presents his own body as a guilt offering (Isa. 53:10) and dies (Isa. 53:9). Like a sin offering where the body of the animal is carried outside the camp, he dies outside the camp (Heb. 13:11-14). Then he will “see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand” (Isa. 53:10). He will live again. As the high priest now living he goes through the rest of the steps in the sacrificial system. That is, he presents the blood of the sacrifice, his own blood (Heb. 9:12). The blood has already been poured out on the earth as he died, cleansing the ground itself.


    https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    What is the Good News?
    What do you want it to be?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    They had faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Did they receive the promises in heaven? Abraham believed Canaan was a symbol of heaven.
    What is the Good News?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Ordained means set up. Hebrews 11 says the heroes of faith never received what was promised to them, but they were set up, so that together with us they would also receive the Kingdom, which Christ's blood created.



    Believed through grace means God made the first move:

    Acts 17:24The God who made the world and everything that is in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made by hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

    God told them they were living lives doing unpleasant selfish acts, for gains that rusted and perished. They cried out to God for rescue.

    See, God was hoping they would 'feel around for Him, and find Him'. Why would He hope, if He had already created people who WOULD find Him. The word used is 'might', meaning it was possible they would reject eternal life, since it was very hard to love your neighbour, probably the hardest thing in the world. It requires looking and planning and thinking about future consequences, in order to agree to make sacrifices.
    They had faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Did they receive the promises in heaven? Abraham believed Canaan was a symbol of heaven.

    Leave a comment:

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