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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    You are jumping to wrong conclusions, making unnecessary distinctions.

    Look at the text.

    Gal 3.1[a]You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of [b]the Law, or by hearing [c]with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you [f]suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do it by works of [h]the Law, or by hearing [i]with faith?

    Hear and believe that God can help you overcome all the obstacles between you and Rest, receive the trust strengthening ministry of the Holy Spirit. Hear and believe the same message from the Holy Spirit, with proof, and you will be allowed to enter Rest, like Caleb, who had a different spirit, was born again, could see the Kingdom of God.

    God promised Abraham he would be a blessing to the world by entering the Land he was promised.

    Abraham heard and believed and the Holy Spirit put him in danger from King Abhimelech and Pharoah, and rescued him. Strengthened by this ministering from the Holy Spirit, his trust was increased, he became a brave person, a different person from how he used to be, was born again, became a new person. When God asked him to sacrifice Isaac, he boldly obeyed, because he knew God would return Isaac back to him.

    Caleb heard and believed and the Holy Spirit put him in danger from hunger and thirst, and rescued him. Strengthened by this ministering from the Holy Spirit, his trust was increased, he became a brave person, a different person from how he used to be, was born again, became a new person. When God asked him to face the Amalekites, he boldly obeyed, because he knew God would bring him back from the dead.

    Israel had the same experience, but forgot God. Search for 'they forgot' in Biblehub, and see what it says! When asked to face the Amalekites, they could not draw on the trust required, because although they had once been 'enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have [e]fallen away'.

    See what happens to the obedient as well as the disobedient:

    Hebrews 6.7For ground that drinks the rain which often [g]falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and [h]close to being cursed, and [i]it ends up being burned.

    Chorazin and Bethesda had been given bread meant for children, which had been withheld from 'dogs', Sidon and Tyre, and still had not been born again, repented, meta-noia-ed, changed their doubt.

    See what Scripture says about how it applies to us, how it is important to receive the Holy Spirit, like Cornelius, and the believers in Acts 19, and even myself:

    Heb 4.6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who previously had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7He again sets a certain day, “Today,” saying [c]through David after so long a time just as has been said before,


    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,


    DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.” 8For if [d]Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9Consequently, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let’s make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same example of disobedience.


    Also:


    1 Cor 10.1For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and they all passed through the sea; 2and they all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and they all ate the same spiritual food, 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was [a]Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased; for their dead bodies were spread out in the wilderness.

    6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they indeed craved them. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND TO DRINK, AND ROSE UP TO PLAY.” 8Nor are we to commit sexual immorality, as some of them [b]did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9Nor are we to put the Lord to the test, as some of them [c]did, and were killed by the snakes. 10Nor grumble, as some of them [d]did, and were killed by the destroyer. 11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12Therefore let the one who thinks he stands watch out that he does not fall.
    ...


    First you have to hear the right Gospel, not the Mickey Mouse version you got. God told Moses that He could help him and Israel get past all the obstacles that lay between them and Rest. If you hear and believe, you WILL RECEIVE THE TRUST STRENGTHENING MINISTRY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, LIKE CORNELIUS AND THE BELIEVERS IN ACTS 19.
    Remember, I do not take time on long posts.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

      Remember, I do not take time on long posts.
      How do you manage to read the Bible?

      Besides, the long post just shows how much support there is in Scripture for my views.

      In other words, short posts, shallow views. Long posts, deep views.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

        How do you manage to read the Bible?

        Besides, the long post just shows how much support there is in Scripture for my views.

        In other words, short posts, shallow views. Long posts, deep views.
        I only invest in reading long posts if I believe I can benefit from them. It is rare in the internet forums but happens once in a while.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

          I only invest in reading long posts if I believe I can benefit from them. It is rare in the internet forums but happens once in a while.
          The posts aren't really long. I just put the full Scripture reference, instead of just quoting the book and chapter info. I could do it, and you could read it by hovering the mouse cursor over it, but the ESV is not neutral, it's pretty much Reformed biased. If the NIV pops up, that's not helpful too, because of wrong translation choices.

          Besides, you have to do due diligence, if you don't want to face a bad verdict at the Judgment. How would you know the good stuff from the bad unless you read it, test the spirit.
          Last edited by footwasher; 02-27-2021, 05:15 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

            The posts aren't really long. I just put the full Scripture reference, instead of just quoting the book and chapter info. I could do it, and you could read it by hovering the mouse cursor over it, but the ESV is not neutral, it's pretty much Reformed biased. If the NIV pops up, that's not helpful too, because of wrong translation choices.

            Besides, you have to do due diligence, if you don't want to face a bad verdict at the Judgment. How would you know the good stuff from the bad unless you read it, test the spirit.
            If I believed as you do, I'd take some time with your longer posts.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

              If I believed as you do, I'd take some time with your longer posts.
              If you believed as I do, you would be safe at the Judgment.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                If you believed as I do, you would be safe at the Judgment.
                I don't think we serve the same Christ.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                  I don't think we serve the same Christ.
                  It's the same Bible. And the warning is there.

                  Romans 15.4For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

                  Might.

                  Heb 3.19And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

                  Not able to enter.

                  1 Cor 10.1I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

                  6These things took place as examples to keep us from craving evil things as they did.

                  They were baptized, but God was not pleased with most of them...

                  Think about that.
                  Last edited by footwasher; 02-27-2021, 02:31 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                    It's the same Bible. And the warning is there.

                    Romans 15.4For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

                    Might.

                    Heb 3.19And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

                    Not able to enter.

                    1 Cor 10.1I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

                    6These things took place as examples to keep us from craving evil things as they did.

                    They were baptized, but God was not pleased with most of them...

                    Think about that.
                    Just as the Jews sacrificed to Molech, many follow an idol they carved into a Jesus they find acceptable. I serve a Christ who saves sinners who cannot believe before he saves them. You serve a version of Christ who allows the self-righteous to save themselves but to no avail. Free will salvation represents a false Christ.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                      Just as the Jews sacrificed to Molech, many follow an idol they carved into a Jesus they find acceptable. I serve a Christ who saves sinners who cannot believe before he saves them. You serve a version of Christ who allows the self-righteous to save themselves but to no avail. Free will salvation represents a false Christ.
                      Prove that with Scripture. If you have the ability to read and understand, hear and listen. Which you seem not to. Will pray for you.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                        Prove that with Scripture. If you have the ability to read and understand, hear and listen. Which you seem not to. Will pray for you.
                        An example might be when Stephen at the time of his martyrdom said: “But God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’” (Acts 7:42–43)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                          An example might be when Stephen at the time of his martyrdom said: “But God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’” (Acts 7:42–43)
                          If you are saved, how is it you can't defend the claim that Israel was given repentance and yet was cut off for unbelief?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                            If you are saved, how is it you can't defend the claim that Israel was given repentance and yet was cut off for unbelief?
                            Only a few in OT Israel were saved. God gave them the law threatening them with death if they did not obey. Saved people do not need this. They already forfeited the land promises ever before reaching Canaan. An 11-day journey that took 40 years to kill them off. Only two of the original nation entered Canaan.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                              Only a few in OT Israel were saved. God gave them the law threatening them with death if they did not obey. Saved people do not need this. They already forfeited the land promises ever before reaching Canaan. An 11-day journey that took 40 years to kill them off. Only two of the original nation entered Canaan.
                              Yes but all were given REPENTANCE. Why were all not saved in the end? If repentance is salvation why did Jesus ask people to repent and believe in Him. There's no need to ask people to repent, if it's in their power to do it, right? It's like saying God gave the elect salvation and saying 'Save yourself from the wrath to come'. He wouldn't, would He? But He did!

                              Also, you quoted Scripture which you say describes me, what happens to worshippers of false gods. You haven't described why they are false gods.

                              While I described why your god is false. You keep getting your explanations wrong. See what indicates you have the real God with you:

                              John 3.1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to [a]Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [b]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
                              Last edited by footwasher; 03-01-2021, 11:56 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                                Yes but all were given REPENTANCE. Why were all not saved in the end? If repentance is salvation why did Jesus ask people to repent and believe in Him. There's no need to ask people to repent, if it's in their power to do it, right? It's like saying God gave the elect salvation and saying 'Save yourself from the wrath to come'. He wouldn't, would He? But He did!

                                Also, you quoted Scripture which you say describes me, what happens to worshippers of false gods. You haven't described why they are false gods.

                                While I described why your god is false. You keep getting your explanations wrong. See what indicates you have the real God with you:

                                John 3.1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to [a]Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [b]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
                                “But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” Romans 11:4–5 (KJV 1900)

                                This means God only granted repentance (Salvation) to 7000 from among the Jews. It's not as you assume.

                                Comment

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