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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Bad theology, as always! Above pupil must get a better report card, improve, do better in the future.

    ​​John 5:19So Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does.

    John 6:38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.
    Where's the proof of your miracles?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

      Where's the proof of your miracles?
      It will come when God asks for it, not when you ask for it!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

        It will come when God asks for it, not when you ask for it!
        You should have at least a video of one raising of the dead, or polio restoration, or Covid cure, with all the video cameras and iPhones today. Scripture says the signs and wonders ended with the Apostles, but you deny even this without the least proof. Although the prayer of faith has healed me many times.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

          You should have at least a video of one raising of the dead, or polio restoration, or Covid cure, with all the video cameras and iPhones today. Scripture says the signs and wonders ended with the Apostles, but you deny even this without the least proof. Although the prayer of faith has healed me many times.
          How are we blessings to he world?


          We are blessings to the world when we turn it from serving self, doing ignoble, selfish work resulting in gains that rust and perish to serving God, doing noble, unselfish acts, that result in treasure that does not perish.


          Noble acts are unselfish acts, specifically laying down our lives, acting sacrificially for our fellow human beings. We do things that cost us but bless others. No greater love has a person than when he lays down his life for others. The way it works is this. We do difficult things like attempting to heal a person, hoping God will help us to be successful. The reason we do this is not because we want to remove sickness from the world, but because when it succeeds, people will want to come to us to find God, and that is what God wants us to do. By trying to heal a person or solve other difficult problems, and when the act is successful, those who see this work are motivated, realise God is with that person.


          We know that this is the way God wants us to lead that person to Him because it is what He revealed to us, by creating problems and then rescuing us from the problem. This is called receiving the Holy Spirit, by hearing and believing.


          Abraham heard that God had a better life, a different ‘country’ planned for him, which he could enter, if he trusted God. He heard this revelation and believed, and received the trust building ministry of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit caused problems for Abraham and then saved him, in the incidents involving King Abhimelech and Pharoah. Abraham learned that if he picked up a cross, God would raise him up, and the world would be motivated to come to a God who could and would save. To test if Abraham’s trust was real, God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham concluded that since the world would be blessed if it saw God rescuing him by giving Isaac back from the dead to him, went ahead and began to offer Isaac as a sacrifice to God. God did give Isaac back to Abraham: He stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac. Since Abraham proved his trust was real, perfected his faith, God opened up the entry into the promised ‘country’ to him, so that even though he did not receive the reward immediately, he did receive it when a better country, the Body of Christ, was prepared. In this country, Abraham could pick up any cross, and be raised up, through the finger of God, so that when it happened, people would see that God was with him, and would want to be with this God, who could, and would always save. We now see that this is why God needed to see that Abraham’s faith was real. He would need to always not think that God might not save, needed to always trust.


          We see that God did the same work in the case of Israel, but only Caleb benefitted from the trust building work of the Holy Spirit. He had a new trust, was a different person, was born again, and was ready to sacrifice his life by facing the Amalekites, and passed the test to see if his faith was real. He was also set apart to enter the Body of Christ.


          We must understand that God did not allow Abraham to provide the sacrifice, because God's plan was to provide the sacrifice. Similarly, God did not allow Caleb to sacrifice himself, because Jesus was the One planned to offer Himself.

          This is the purpose of signs, and why they should not be misused

          John 6.26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

            How are we blessings to he world?


            We are blessings to the world when we turn it from serving self, doing ignoble, selfish work resulting in gains that rust and perish to serving God, doing noble, unselfish acts, that result in treasure that does not perish.


            Noble acts are unselfish acts, specifically laying down our lives, acting sacrificially for our fellow human beings. We do things that cost us but bless others. No greater love has a person than when he lays down his life for others. The way it works is this. We do difficult things like attempting to heal a person, hoping God will help us to be successful. The reason we do this is not because we want to remove sickness from the world, but because when it succeeds, people will want to come to us to find God, and that is what God wants us to do. By trying to heal a person or solve other difficult problems, and when the act is successful, those who see this work are motivated, realise God is with that person.


            We know that this is the way God wants us to lead that person to Him because it is what He revealed to us, by creating problems and then rescuing us from the problem. This is called receiving the Holy Spirit, by hearing and believing.


            Abraham heard that God had a better life, a different ‘country’ planned for him, which he could enter, if he trusted God. He heard this revelation and believed, and received the trust building ministry of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit caused problems for Abraham and then saved him, in the incidents involving King Abhimelech and Pharoah. Abraham learned that if he picked up a cross, God would raise him up, and the world would be motivated to come to a God who could and would save. To test if Abraham’s trust was real, God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham concluded that since the world would be blessed if it saw God rescuing him by giving Isaac back from the dead to him, went ahead and began to offer Isaac as a sacrifice to God. God did give Isaac back to Abraham: He stopped Abraham from sacrificing Isaac. Since Abraham proved his trust was real, perfected his faith, God opened up the entry into the promised ‘country’ to him, so that even though he did not receive the reward immediately, he did receive it when a better country, the Body of Christ, was prepared. In this country, Abraham could pick up any cross, and be raised up, through the finger of God, so that when it happened, people would see that God was with him, and would want to be with this God, who could, and would always save. We now see that this is why God needed to see that Abraham’s faith was real. He would need to always not think that God might not save, needed to always trust.


            We see that God did the same work in the case of Israel, but only Caleb benefitted from the trust building work of the Holy Spirit. He had a new trust, was a different person, was born again, and was ready to sacrifice his life by facing the Amalekites, and passed the test to see if his faith was real. He was also set apart to enter the Body of Christ.


            We must understand that God did not allow Abraham to provide the sacrifice, because God's plan was to provide the sacrifice. Similarly, God did not allow Caleb to sacrifice himself, because Jesus was the One planned to offer Himself.

            This is the purpose of signs, and why they should not be misused

            John 6.26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate some of the loaves and were filled.
            I ignore long posts. So I'll give a blanket response. How do you expect people to believe you about Christ when all they see are empty claims of miracles with zero documentation?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

              I ignore long posts. So I'll give a blanket response. How do you expect people to believe you about Christ when all they see are empty claims of miracles with zero documentation?
              That's the problem. If you can't understand long posts, how can you understand the Bible? 66 books, over 2000 years in the making.

              You really need prayer.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                That's the problem. If you can't understand long posts, how can you understand the Bible? 66 books, over 2000 years in the making.

                You really need prayer.
                Many in the forums say nothing I consider to be worth investing time in. So I might grab one paragraph and comment on that. No offence, but I have many similar challenges in different forums.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                  Many in the forums say nothing I consider to be worth investing time in. So I might grab one paragraph and comment on that. No offence, but I have many similar challenges in different forums.
                  Actually, it may be an advantage to be weak. People will be even more convinced God is with you.

                  Acts 4.13When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

                  2 Cor 12.7Because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to [b]torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast [c]about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I delight in weaknesses, in [d]insults, in distresses, in persecutions, in difficulties, in behalf of Christ; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                    Actually, it may be an advantage to be weak. People will be even more convinced God is with you.

                    Acts 4.13When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

                    2 Cor 12.7Because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to [b]torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast [c]about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10Therefore I delight in weaknesses, in [d]insults, in distresses, in persecutions, in difficulties, in behalf of Christ; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
                    I like your "sanctified" insults. They say more than anything else.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                      I like your "sanctified" insults. They say more than anything else.
                      No, I really mean it: it shocks people that weak believers can explain difficult problems, both in Scripture, as well as about life. They can only explain it as God being behind the sign.

                      Cor 14.23Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

                      Ephesians 4.8This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                        No, I really mean it: it shocks people that weak believers can explain difficult problems, both in Scripture, as well as about life. They can only explain it as God being behind the sign.

                        Cor 14.23Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 24But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; 25the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

                        Ephesians 4.8This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people."
                        You are cherry-picking scripture to support your indoctrination. Only the Apostles (apart from the two outpourings) had the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts. And only those they laid hands on had the same. Except they could not pass them to others. “And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” Acts 8:18 (KJV 1900)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                          You are cherry-picking scripture to support your indoctrination. Only the Apostles (apart from the two outpourings) had the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the gifts. And only those they laid hands on had the same. Except they could not pass them to others. “And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” Acts 8:18 (KJV 1900)
                          The texts I quoted say that Christ gave gifts to His people, those inside the Kingdom. These gifted people could solve difficult Scripture, pick up crosses and be raised up, which made the ungifted, like you and me, want to come into the Kingdom.

                          The incidents you referred to has nothing to do with the matter I posted about.
                          Last edited by footwasher; 01-27-2021, 11:03 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                            The texts I quoted say that Christ gave gifts to His people, those inside the Kingdom. These gifted people could solve difficult Scripture, pick up crosses and be raised up, which made the ungifted, like you and me, want to come into the Kingdom.

                            The incidents you referred to has nothing to do with the matter I posted about.
                            He gave them only through the apostle's hands (besides the two outpourings). They ceased when the apostles died, even before that.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                              He gave them only through the apostle's hands (besides the two outpourings). They ceased when the apostles died, even before that.
                              Those are not gifts. That is the giving of the Holy Spirit. Which is by hearing and believing. The gifts are given in the Kingdom, after passing the test of faith. We must not fall short.

                              Heb 4.1Therefore, we must fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
                              Last edited by footwasher; 01-27-2021, 12:23 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                                Those are not gifts. That is the giving of the Holy Spirit. Which is by hearing and believing. The gifts are given in the Kingdom, after passing the test of faith. We must not fall short.

                                Heb 4.1Therefore, we must fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
                                This is not biblical. You need to study the scriptures and stop adding to them.

                                Comment

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