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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Sure all the Apostles stood up, but there is no proof the 120 were not with them.

    Your views are inadequate, will land you in trouble, you will be hearing Christ say, "I never knew you". It's like buying a smartphone or a car that is a lemon, but at least you know that it doesn't work and you can switch. Here you are waiting for the afterlife to find out your fault, when it's also clear from Scripture that your Gospel should be seen to to be the true Gospel in this life, and not a lemon too. Better switch, bro, before it's too late.


    “These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)” Acts 1:14–15 (KJV 1900) “Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.” Acts 1:16 (KJV 1900)

    Notice the past tense.


    “But Peter, standing up with the eleven [all men], lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these [men] are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;” Acts 2:14–16 (KJV 1900)

    Present Tense.


    And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they [the Apostles] were all with one accord in one place.” Acts 1:26–2:1 (KJV 1900)

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post



    This was not the 120. But the 12 only.

    1“But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:” Acts 2:14 (KJV 1900) “For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.” Acts 2:15 (KJV 1900)
    Sure all the Apostles stood up, but there is no proof the 120 were not with them.

    Your views are inadequate, will land you in trouble, you will be hearing Christ say, "I never knew you". It's like buying a smartphone or a car that is a lemon, but at least you know that it doesn't work and you can switch. Here you are waiting for the afterlife to find out your fault, when it's also clear from Scripture that your Gospel should be seen to to be the true Gospel in this life, and not a lemon too. Better switch, bro, before it's too late.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    You can't prove that there were only 12 people. Fail. Bad theology, bad reasoning, bad teaching.


    This was not the 120. But the 12 only.

    1“But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:” Acts 2:14 (KJV 1900) “For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.” Acts 2:15 (KJV 1900)

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    The 12 Apostles were the only ones there. As I said, besides the 2 outpourings, the baptism and gifts came only through their hands. The 120 was a different time and place.

    The people heard the 12 apostles speaking in tongues.
    You can't prove that there were only 12 people. Fail. Bad theology, bad reasoning, bad teaching.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post


    The 12 Apostles were the only ones there. As I said, besides the 2 outpourings, the baptism and gifts came only through their hands. The 120 was a different time and place.

    The people heard the 12 apostles speaking in tongues.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Put the scriptures in quotes and I'll show you where you are missing the message.
    Acts 2.1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues a as the Spirit enabled them.
    Acts 10.44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [ae]message. 45All the [af]Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    #225
    Put the scriptures in quotes and I'll show you where you are missing the message.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Can't you read? Both Scripture quotes shows people spoke in tongues without any laying of hands.
    Quote the scriptures and I will show you where you are wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Where?
    #225

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Can't you read? Both Scripture quotes shows people spoke in tongues without any laying of hands.
    Where?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    This is not true. Show from scripture where it says people spoke in tongues. It was only during the two outpourings or after an apostle laid hands on them. You are adding to scripture in your present claims.
    Can't you read? Both Scripture quotes shows people spoke in tongues without any laying of hands.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dave L
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Wrong. Here everyone who believed were filled with the Holy Spirit, and without laying on of hands, not just the Apostles:


    Acts 2.1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues a as the Spirit enabled them.


    Also here:


    Acts 10.44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [ae]message. 45All the [af]Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
    This is not true. Show from scripture where it says people spoke in tongues. It was only during the two outpourings or after an apostle laid hands on them. You are adding to scripture in your present claims.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

    You not paying attention to what Im showing you already.
    You the one who don't understand Scripture. The text say that God hopes every person MIGHT look for Him. Nowhere in Scripture it say that God determines definitely that some people will find Him:

    Acts 17.26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Paul laid hands on them so they could receive the gifts. Further proof the gifts came only through an Apostle's hands after the two outpourings. = no Apostles, no gifts. “And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” Acts 8:18 (KJV 1900)
    Wrong. Here everyone who believed were filled with the Holy Spirit, and without laying on of hands, not just the Apostles:


    Acts 2.1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues a as the Spirit enabled them.


    Also here:


    Acts 10.44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [ae]message. 45All the [af]Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. 46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded, 47“Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

    Leave a comment:


  • brightfame52
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

    Show me how it says God made some undeserving people follow Jesus, and prevented other deserving people from doing the same.
    You not paying attention to what Im showing you already.

    Leave a comment:

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