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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

    Do you know most reject Christ's gospel of the kingdom today and side with the Pharisees believing in their pre-millennial kingdom?
    Do you agree that the Kingdom of God is available in this present life, which calls for us to enter it now, so that we can through the finger of God, be a blessing to the world?

    Luke 11:20But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    Heb 4:6Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience, 7God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

      Do you agree that the Kingdom of God is available in this present life, which calls for us to enter it now, so that we can through the finger of God, be a blessing to the world?

      Luke 11:20But if I cast out the demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

      Heb 4:6Since, then, it remains for some to enter His rest, and since those who formerly heard the good news did not enter because of their disobedience, 7God again designated a certain day as “Today,” when a long time later He spoke through David as was just stated: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.
      The kingdom arrived with Jesus as Daniel said, in the times of the ancient Roman Empire. Only the born-again can see it and enter it. Premillennialism is a false Pharisee doctrine that will never be.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

        The kingdom arrived with Jesus as Daniel said, in the times of the ancient Roman Empire. Only the born-again can see it and enter it. Premillennialism is a false Pharisee doctrine that will never be.
        Jesus describes the marks of those in the Kingdom as being able to do signs through the finger of God, something Nicodemus confirmed:

        John 3.2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these fnsigns that You do unless God is with him.

        So what signs are you able to perform?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

          Jesus describes the marks of those in the Kingdom as being able to do signs through the finger of God, something Nicodemus confirmed:

          John 3.2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these fnsigns that You do unless God is with him.

          So what signs are you able to perform?
          Are you Pentecostal?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

            Are you Pentecostal?
            The Bible is Pentecostal.

            Your Pastor sending you out on door to door evangelism, without giving you the power to prise people out of the world/Egypt, is like you going to a gunfight with a knife:

            Exodus 4:1¶Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen fnto what I say? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’”

            God made sickness and hard to understand Scripture, so that you can solve them, and motivate people to come out of Egypt:

            Ephesians 2:10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

            Isaiah 45:77The One forming light and creating darkness,
            Causing well-being and creating calamity;
            I am the LORD who does all these.

            John 9:1As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
            2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
            3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
            4“We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
            5“While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

            It's quite clear you aren't in the Kingdom.
            Last edited by footwasher; 01-19-2021, 03:47 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

              The Bible is Pentecostal.

              Your Pastor sending you out on door to door evangelism, without giving you the power to prise people out of the world/Egypt, is like you going to a gunfight with a knife:

              Exodus 4:1¶Then Moses said, “What if they will not believe me or listen fnto what I say? For they may say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’”

              God made sickness and hard to understand Scripture, so that you can solve them, and motivate people to come out of Egypt:

              Ephesians 2:10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

              Isaiah 45:77The One forming light and creating darkness,
              Causing well-being and creating calamity;
              I am the LORD who does all these.

              John 9:1As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
              2And His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?”
              3Jesus answered, “It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
              4“We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
              5“While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.”

              It's quite clear you aren't in the Kingdom.
              Did you know the signs and wonders confirmed the Apostles? And only those they laid hands on received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? The only exception to this was the Pentecost outpouring on the 12, and the gentile outpouring 7 years later at Cornelius' house. The Baptism with signs and wonders ended before the Apostle's deaths. There are many proofs that today's claims to the gifts are false.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                Did you know the signs and wonders confirmed the Apostles? And only those they laid hands on received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? The only exception to this was the Pentecost outpouring on the 12, and the gentile outpouring 7 years later at Cornelius' house. The Baptism with signs and wonders ended before the Apostle's deaths. There are many proofs that today's claims to the gifts are false.


                Why did the author of Hebrews say there is yet a rest to be entered?

                Heb 4.11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
                Last edited by footwasher; 01-20-2021, 01:03 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by footwasher View Post



                  Why did the author of Hebrews say there is yet a rest to be entered?

                  Heb 4.11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.
                  Only those who do not try to save themselves flexing their "free will" can experience this rest.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                    Only those who do not try to save themselves flexing their "free will" can experience this rest.
                    Come on, don't get so hung up about free will. I am asking what is the purpose of Rest, the Kingdom, which has to be entered, the Promised Land, which Joshua only entered as a type, an analogy?

                    Why did God promise Abraham he would be a blessing to the world, and then say he would be given Land?

                    In other words, isn't being in the Land, entering Rest, the Kingdom, which would empower Abraham and his descendants to be a blessing to the world?

                    Leading to the next question:

                    How was Abraham going to be a blessing to the world?
                    Last edited by footwasher; 01-20-2021, 06:40 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                      Come on, don't get so hung up about free will. I am asking what is the purpose of Rest, the Kingdom, which has to be entered, the Promised Land, which Joshua only entered as a type, an analogy?

                      Why did God promise Abraham he would be a blessing to the world, and then say he would be given Land?

                      In other words, isn't being in the Land, entering Rest, the Kingdom, which would empower Abraham and his descendants to be a blessing to the world?

                      Leading to the next question:

                      How was Abraham going to be a blessing to the world?
                      Why did Abraham see Canaan as a symbol of heaven, unlike the unbelievers who took the promise literally, as they continue to do today? “For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.” Hebrews 11:14–16 (KJV 1900)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                        Why did Abraham see Canaan as a symbol of heaven, unlike the unbelievers who took the promise literally, as they continue to do today? “For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.” Hebrews 11:14–16 (KJV 1900)
                        To answer my own question, "How was Abraham going to be a blessing to the world?" since you have no clue where this is going, Abraham was going to be a blessing to the world by entering the Promised Land, the Body of Christ, the Temple, the Kingdom, which was created to be accessible to the People of God, by the blood of Christ.

                        Jesus was very clear that when he performed signs by the finger of God, it was because He was the Kingdom:

                        Luke 11:20But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

                        When the Kingdom is manifested through signs, when believers pick up crosses, great works, and God acts to complete those signs, raises up, the world is drawn to God:

                        John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to [a]Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [b]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”


                        Numbers 14:24But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.


                        Joshua 2:8Before the spies lay down for the night, Rahab went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that the fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who dwell in the land are melting in fear of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the waters of the Red Seab before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites across the Jordan, whom you devoted to destruction.c 11When we heard this, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth below.

                        John 12:32
                        ​​​​

                        Contemporary English Version
                        If I am lifted up above the earth, I will make everyone want to come to me.

                        You poor thing, I feel sorry for you for your inadequate, incomplete Gospel. Better get with the program, kid.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                          To answer my own question, "How was Abraham going to be a blessing to the world?" since you have no clue where this is going, Abraham was going to be a blessing to the world by entering the Promised Land, the Body of Christ, the Temple, the Kingdom, which was created to be accessible to the People of God, by the blood of Christ.

                          Jesus was very clear that when he performed signs by the finger of God, it was because He was the Kingdom:

                          Luke 11:20But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

                          When the Kingdom is manifested through signs, when believers pick up crosses, great works, and God acts to complete those signs, raises up, the world is drawn to God:

                          John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to [a]Jesus at night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [b]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born [c]again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”


                          Numbers 14:24But because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it.


                          Joshua 2:8Before the spies lay down for the night, Rahab went up on the roof 9and said to them, “I know that the LORD has given you this land and that the fear of you has fallen on us, so that all who dwell in the land are melting in fear of you. 10For we have heard how the LORD dried up the waters of the Red Seab before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to Sihon and Og, the two kings of the Amorites across the Jordan, whom you devoted to destruction.c 11When we heard this, our hearts melted and everyone’s courage failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in the heavens above and on the earth below.

                          John 12:32
                          ​​​​

                          Contemporary English Version
                          If I am lifted up above the earth, I will make everyone want to come to me.

                          You poor thing, I feel sorry for you for your inadequate, incomplete Gospel. Better get with the program, kid.
                          How was the whole world, non-Jewish, blessed in Abraham?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                            How was the whole world, non-Jewish, blessed in Abraham?
                            Good, you finally want to study the topic. The the text says the heroes of faith in Heb 11 entered the Kingdom along with us:

                            Heb 11.39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive [aa]what was promised, 40because God had [ab]provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

                            Comment


                            • The problem with man made religion that goes out in the name of Christ is this:

                              They don't believe nor acknowledge that Christ Work alone for those He died for, His Sheep, that it made the salvation of their souls sure and effectual !49

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                                Only those who do not try to save themselves flexing their "free will" can experience this rest.
                                Why did God get angry with Israel for being disobedient and swear they would never enter His Rest if they without free will refused to believe? That would be like being angry with your child who you made disobedient for refusing to obey you, and being happy with Caleb, because you made him obedient.

                                It doesn't make sense, to disapprove and punish something you caused, and similarly, approve and reward something you also caused.

                                Good behaviour is only good behaviour if it is from free will. Otherwise it is only an actor reading a script and acting, or a robot spewing out what it is programmed to do. Nothing worthy of being appreciated and rewarded.

                                Because God loves to see righteousness, like a Gardener loves to see fruit on His trees, He created humans with free will, so real righteousness could be manifested. Otherwise He would just stick fruit on the trees, like you are teaching.

                                Luke 13:7And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Look! For three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?

                                Hebrews 6:7For ground that drinks the rain which often [g]falls on it and produces vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and [h]close to being cursed, and [i]it ends up being burned.

                                Your error is so glaring its logic, that it shows your lack of comprehension of basic reasoning. Your theology is built on shifting sand.
                                Last edited by footwasher; 01-22-2021, 03:36 PM.

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