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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    This is a serious matter, how can we pretend, if the wrong method is used to fulfill the promises of the Bible, landing people in terrible situations?
    My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness, I dare not trust the sweetest frame -- or some guy on the internetzweb.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

      My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness, I dare not trust the sweetest frame -- or some guy on the internetzweb.
      July 27, 2005

      TheologyWeb.com


      Our friend DeeDee Warren of TheologyWeb.com is interviewed by The Door. TheologyWeb.com is a community of people interested in their slogan: "We Debate Theology. Seriously!" DeeDee describes their enterprise:

      "What we've really tried to create is a very attractive environment, where there's a lot of community, and friendship, and long-term things that happen amongst people with very diverse points of view, even though our ultimate goal is the promotion of Christianity. We've really opened the doors, and welcomed, from the most extreme Atheists, to the most Fundamentalist Christian."

      ...

      A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

      Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."

      The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."

      So the rowboat went on.

      Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."

      To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

      So the motorboat went on.

      Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."

      To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

      So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

      Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"

      To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

      ....

      John 16:5“But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6But because I have said these things to you, grief has filled your heart. 7But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the [e]Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me; 11and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

      See, there will be a judgement for not believing. How does this make sense if God causes belief? He will have to declare Himself guilty for not creating belief in the unbeliever.
      Last edited by footwasher; 01-17-2021, 08:54 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

        Oh, come on! Do you think it's good news, the fact that only the elect are saved? The good news is the same news that Israel received in the wilderness:

        Hebrews 4:2For we also received the good news just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, since they did not share the faith of those who comprehended it.

        So tell us what it is, so that we can know you understand what the Gospel is, and what should happen to anyone who believes it. Right now, it seems as if you don't even know what the Gospel is, so prove us wrong.

        What did you hear and believe?
        Chew on these for awhile'

        “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48 (KJV 1900)

        “And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:” Acts 18:27 (KJV 1900)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Dave L View Post
          Chew on these for awhile'

          “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48 (KJV 1900)
          Ordained means set up. Hebrews 11 says the heroes of faith never received what was promised to them, but they were set up, so that together with us they would also receive the Kingdom, which Christ's blood created.

          “And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:” Acts 18:27 (KJV 1900)
          Believed through grace means God made the first move:

          Acts 17:24The God who made the world and everything that is in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made by hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

          God told them they were living lives doing unpleasant selfish acts, for gains that rusted and perished. They cried out to God for rescue.

          See, God was hoping they would 'feel around for Him, and find Him'. Why would He hope, if He had already created people who WOULD find Him. The word used is 'might', meaning it was possible they would reject eternal life, since it was very hard to love your neighbour, probably the hardest thing in the world. It requires looking and planning and thinking about future consequences, in order to agree to make sacrifices.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

            My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness, I dare not trust the sweetest frame -- or some guy on the internetzweb.
            So what would be the description of a person who you could trust?

            A known person who can't explain the difficult passages in Scripture?

            Or, a stranger, who CAN explain the difficult passages?

            Would you listen to a good friend who has never been to New York about directions to a place you needed to go to, or to a stranger in New York, who would tell you the landmarks you needed to pass, and the one way streets or dead ends that you needed to avoid, in order to do the same?

            You must have heard about the unsuitability of getting advice from strangers on the Internet about important things like psychological problems, or marriage advice. That's because you can't divulge personal details on the 'Net. So not only is it too personal to do that on the Net, it's probably not possible to get a thorough counselling done.

            But this is different. The topics discussed in theology are abstract concepts, to reach a positive spiritual state. Paul describes getting good theology as building a Temple. If we do a bad job, the outcome is very, very, bad: we will be destroyed. So doing our homework is very, very, important. And discussing is possible on the Net: everybody gets a chance to speak, and point out errors. Whereas in the church we need to be polite and avoid friction.
            Last edited by footwasher; 01-18-2021, 06:44 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

              Ordained means set up. Hebrews 11 says the heroes of faith never received what was promised to them, but they were set up, so that together with us they would also receive the Kingdom, which Christ's blood created.



              Believed through grace means God made the first move:

              Acts 17:24The God who made the world and everything that is in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made by hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

              God told them they were living lives doing unpleasant selfish acts, for gains that rusted and perished. They cried out to God for rescue.

              See, God was hoping they would 'feel around for Him, and find Him'. Why would He hope, if He had already created people who WOULD find Him. The word used is 'might', meaning it was possible they would reject eternal life, since it was very hard to love your neighbour, probably the hardest thing in the world. It requires looking and planning and thinking about future consequences, in order to agree to make sacrifices.
              They had faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Did they receive the promises in heaven? Abraham believed Canaan was a symbol of heaven.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                They had faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Did they receive the promises in heaven? Abraham believed Canaan was a symbol of heaven.
                What is the Good News?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                  What is the Good News?
                  What do you want it to be?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                    What do you want it to be?
                    Hey, are you also brightflame52? Haha!

                    Actually, God's plan is not to put man into Heaven. If so, He would have just made Man into an angel. God made Man because He loves righteousness being produced, just like gardeners love to see fruit on their trees. He made Creation half completed so that through righteousness, humanity would subdue Creation. In other words, if you see a tame horse or a tame dog, you know that humanity has manifested righteousness. Man made Creation useful to God by staying in the Garden, where he could be in union with God, what Jesus prayed for, so that through the finger of God, Creation would be tamed. You can see how Nicodemus was made useful to God when he saw the signs performed through the finger of God: he saw that God was with Jesus, the Kingdom of God had come amongst men. The Kingdom is like the cleft in the Rock, that protected Moses from the holy, sin burning fire of God.

                    So the good news is that the Kingdom of God was approaching, the Promised Land was almost ready to be given to the saints of the past as well as during Christ's days:

                    Quote

                    We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

                    The final atonement must be simultaneously like a sheep who dies and like the high priest who presents the sacrifice. This final high priest is described in Isa. 53 as the servant of the Lord. He presents his own body as a guilt offering (Isa. 53:10) and dies (Isa. 53:9). Like a sin offering where the body of the animal is carried outside the camp, he dies outside the camp (Heb. 13:11-14). Then he will “see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand” (Isa. 53:10). He will live again. As the high priest now living he goes through the rest of the steps in the sacrificial system. That is, he presents the blood of the sacrifice, his own blood (Heb. 9:12). The blood has already been poured out on the earth as he died, cleansing the ground itself.


                    https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                      They had faith. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Did they receive the promises in heaven? Abraham believed Canaan was a symbol of heaven.
                      This is a good example of misunderstanding the text because we do not know what the historical context was. Here our old TWeb Forum member, Tercel, who is a lexicographer, is an expert in Greek, and has published scholarly books, writes about 'faith':

                      Quote
                      So, an example of how the Patron-Client system can be relevant to Biblical interpretation is Hebrews 11:1.
                      "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (NRSV)
                      That is a rather horrible translation.

                      The words "faith" (faithfulness) and "hoped" (expected), are technical terms in the Patron-Client system. As noted before, "faithfulness" denotes the client's loyalty to their patron (and also the patron's loyalty to the client). "Expect" denotes the hope of future favours. A client could validly expect favours from their Patron if they had been faithful to their Patron and served them well. Thus, in the first half of the verse we actually just have a basic statement about how the Patron-Client system works: If you are faithful you can expect favours. That's it. It's a summary of how a part of their every-day life society worked. The second half of the verse is just saying the same thing a different way: Our faithfulness testifies that we will receive favours that we haven't yet gotten (that we do not yet "see").

                      Historically this verse has been a minefield for people arguing over the definiton of faithfulness. A huge amount of stuff has been written trying to nail down precisely what each of the words in the sentence meant in an effort to get a precise definition of "faith" out of it. (Unfortunately this didn't work too well as a few of the words in the sentence have a variety of translation possibilities) But as a result of these efforts a lot of people are convinced that the Bible here defines faith as belief in things we can't see. As a result of theologians' sterling efforts over the centuries in mining the bible for sentences such as this one they have had great fun in formulating exactly what it means to have "faith". "Faith" had become an almost-magical word, set apart from everyday life.

                      That's one of the reasons, I suspect, that theologians have been relatively slow to pick up on the findings of the social sciences. The discovery of how the word "faithfulness" was actually used in the day-to-day life of the first century AD Mediterranean world has made hundreds of years of theological discussions worthless, and a lot of people don't like to let mere facts or evidence get in the way of their ideas and traditions. [Maybe I'm being too harsh, after all, the first book on the subject of linking Social Sciences with NT exegesis was only in 1981, and it was pretty badly written]

                      Anyway, the take home lesson is:
                      Next time you're reading the bible and you see the words "faith" or "belief" read "faithfulness" instead and think "Patron-Client system = faithfulness repaid with favours". (Of course the result won't make much sense because it won't fit with how the translators have translated the rest of the sentence)

                      A great rule to keep in mind is this: Faithfulness is targeted at people, belief is targeted at ideas. You can be committed to a person, or committed to an idea. But talking about faithfulness to an idea, or belief in a person is nonsense.

                      http://theogeek.blogspot.com/2006/03...s-111.html?m=0

                      If you have trouble understanding that quote, we can discuss and clarify what it means. At the least, you should understand that the Bible is a very complicated book, it needs slow and careful study.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                        Hey, are you also brightflame52? Haha!

                        Actually, God's plan is not to put man into Heaven. If so, He would have just made Man into an angel. God made Man because He loves righteousness being produced, just like gardeners love to see fruit on their trees. He made Creation half completed so that through righteousness, humanity would subdue Creation. In other words, if you see a tame horse or a tame dog, you know that humanity has manifested righteousness. Man made Creation useful to God by staying in the Garden, where he could be in union with God, what Jesus prayed for, so that through the finger of God, Creation would be tamed. You can see how Nicodemus was made useful to God when he saw the signs performed through the finger of God: he saw that God was with Jesus, the Kingdom of God had come amongst men. The Kingdom is like the cleft in the Rock, that protected Moses from the holy, sin burning fire of God.

                        So the good news is that the Kingdom of God was approaching, the Promised Land was almost ready to be given to the saints of the past as well as during Christ's days:

                        Quote

                        We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

                        The final atonement must be simultaneously like a sheep who dies and like the high priest who presents the sacrifice. This final high priest is described in Isa. 53 as the servant of the Lord. He presents his own body as a guilt offering (Isa. 53:10) and dies (Isa. 53:9). Like a sin offering where the body of the animal is carried outside the camp, he dies outside the camp (Heb. 13:11-14). Then he will “see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand” (Isa. 53:10). He will live again. As the high priest now living he goes through the rest of the steps in the sacrificial system. That is, he presents the blood of the sacrifice, his own blood (Heb. 9:12). The blood has already been poured out on the earth as he died, cleansing the ground itself.


                        https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/
                        You might do well to read as much as you can from Vern Poythress and John Frame. They are Calvinists who know more than most.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                          You might do well to read as much as you can from Vern Poythress and John Frame. They are Calvinists who know more than most.
                          So you agree that the Gospel is the news that the Kingdom of God was coming amongst men.

                          This must be entered through hearing the ministry of the Holy Spirit, to believe God will always protect, so that our faith is strengthened, so we will pass the test, when we hear His voice:

                          Hebrews 3:7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
                          “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

                          8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
                          AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

                          9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
                          AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

                          10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
                          AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
                          AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

                          11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
                          ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

                          It's very important to enter Rest. This is the situation where we will, through the finger of God, pick up crosses and be raised up, and draw the world to God.

                          This is how we can be blessings to the world, by lighting their path back to God. This is why after promising Abraham that his descendants would be a blessing to the world, He promised also to give him land, the way they could be that blessing, the Way that Adam could turn Creation to serve God, by being in the Garden.

                          You can see that John Frame and Vern Poythress benefited from the document evidence that shows the Land was the old humanity in Adam, cleansed by the blood of Christ, to form the New Man in Christ, the Body of Christ. I can try to show you from Talmud how this idea was taught by the Jewish sages, but getting that link is a bit tough. We will see.

                          Anyway, please remember our idea that the Biblical material is complicated, needing careful study, by ALL God's followers, both Calvinists and others, because we all want to have the right information about how to be pleasing to God, who did so much for us. Let's not jump to conclusions about Him, even though our intentions are to give Him praise.

                          You want to glorify God by focusing on His power, He can do everything.

                          I want to glorify God by focusing on His love, He gave us the opportunity to choose, because real love for Him can only be manifested by freedom to choose.

                          After all, the Bible says:

                          1 Cor 13:13
                          But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                            So you agree that the Gospel is the news that the Kingdom of God was coming amongst men.

                            This must be entered through hearing the ministry of the Holy Spirit, to believe God will always protect, so that our faith is strengthened, so we will pass the test, when we hear His voice:

                            Hebrews 3:7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
                            “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

                            8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
                            AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

                            9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
                            AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

                            10“THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
                            AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
                            AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;

                            11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
                            ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”

                            It's very important to enter Rest. This is the situation where we will, through the finger of God, pick up crosses and be raised up, and draw the world to God.

                            This is how we can be blessings to the world, by lighting their path back to God. This is why after promising Abraham that his descendants would be a blessing to the world, He promised also to give him land, the way they could be that blessing, the Way that Adam could turn Creation to serve God, by being in the Garden.

                            You can see that John Frame and Vern Poythress benefited from the document evidence that shows the Land was the old humanity in Adam, cleansed by the blood of Christ, to form the New Man in Christ, the Body of Christ. I can try to show you from Talmud how this idea was taught by the Jewish sages, but getting that link is a bit tough. We will see.

                            Anyway, please remember our idea that the Biblical material is complicated, needing careful study, by ALL God's followers, both Calvinists and others, because we all want to have the right information about how to be pleasing to God, who did so much for us. Let's not jump to conclusions about Him, even though our intentions are to give Him praise.

                            You want to glorify God by focusing on His power, He can do everything.

                            I want to glorify God by focusing on His love, He gave us the opportunity to choose, because real love for Him can only be manifested by freedom to choose.

                            After all, the Bible says:

                            1 Cor 13:13
                            But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

                            You are in safe hands with Poythress and Frame.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                              You are in safe hands with Poythress and Frame.
                              They agree that the Gospel is not about going to heaven. It's about being a blessing and leading a purposeful life resulting in treasure that does not perish.

                              It will be interesting if you ask what the Gospel is in the N T Wright group or the TWeb Group in Facebook where others like me are posting.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                                They agree that the Gospel is not about going to heaven. It's about being a blessing and leading a purposeful life resulting in treasure that does not perish.

                                It will be interesting if you ask what the Gospel is in the N T Wright group or the TWeb Group in Facebook where others like me are posting.
                                Do you know most reject Christ's gospel of the kingdom today and side with the Pharisees believing in their pre-millennial kingdom?

                                Comment

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