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The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

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  • The Saving results of the Death of Christ !

    The religion of man doesn't believe that the death of Christ alone results in the Eternal Salvation of all for whom Christ died, namely His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 or His Church Eph 5:25, or His People Matt 1:21.

    His death for His people produces saving results Jn 12:32-33 23,24

    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

    23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

  • #2
    Considering most if not all of the people in this forum believe what you said, you just preached to the choir.

    What am I suppose to respond to?
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
      Considering most if not all of the people in this forum believe what you said, you just preached to the choir.

      What am I suppose to respond to?
      Thats entirely up to you.

      Comment


      • #4
        Welcome to the site, brightflame!

        And thank you for posting a reminder of how Christ's atoning work on the cross alone redeems us and brings us back into a right relationship with God.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          Welcome to the site, brightflame!

          And thank you for posting a reminder of how Christ's atoning work on the cross alone redeems us and brings us back into a right relationship with God.
          Thanks for the welcome ! And yes it does !

          Comment


          • #6
            The Death of Christ alone saved them he died for, namely the Elect, the Sheep, since by His One Offering they were sanctified unto God once and for all Heb 10:10

            10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.5

            Comment


            • #7
              The word sanctified here in Heb 10:10 is the word hagiazō and means:

              to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin


              The Death of Christ has freed them He died for from the guilt of sin. It also agrees with Heb 1:3

              Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
              The word purged is the word katharismos:

              a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

              So cleansing from and freedom from the guilt of sin is automatically a saving result of the death of Christ !6

              Comment


              • #8
                A companion verse of Heb 10:10 which confirms the saving result of them Christ died for, namely His Sheep, its Heb 10:14

                14 For by one offering[His death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

                Now who are the them that are sanctified ? Look again at Heb 10:10, and how were they sanctified ? Now these by that same means, Christs death are said to be perfected forever ! This includes their Justification before God, a complete cleansing of all the guilt of their sins. And that for ever !10

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
                  The religion of man doesn't believe that the death of Christ alone results in the Eternal Salvation of all for whom Christ died, namely His Sheep Jn 10:11,15 or His Church Eph 5:25, or His People Matt 1:21.

                  His death for His people produces saving results Jn 12:32-33 23,24

                  32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

                  23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
                  The Saving results of the Death of Christ


                  How does the death of Christ result in the saving of believers?



                  We must keep in mind that salvation must restore the losses recorded in the Bible. This may be obvious, but let's think about it. If I say someone is saved from sickness, it means he is healthy, has gone back to a previous state, his lost health is recovered. So if I say God's children are saved, it means I can subdue the earth again, my job which gives me gains that do not rust and perish has come back to me. Salvation may include other things, but it must not exclude this. There must be something in salvation which takes care of this loss, recorded right there in Scripture, right in the beginning, the loss of having a life with substance.


                  So what did Adam lose, which led to loss of this life, which was regained by what Jesus did, saved, restored, brought back?


                  We can see that Adam lost his sinlessness. He needed that sinlessness to be in God's presence, because only together with God could he complete creation, like children complete projects, like baking a cake or building a hot rod, with the help of their parents. God made increation incomplete, so that He could see Adam bear the fruit of righteousness, which He delighted in seeing, like a Gardener takes pleasure in seeing fruit on His plants, expressed in the subduing of the earth, itself a sign that Adam and God were in union. Since Adam was himself incomplete, his mind couldn't differentiate between good and evil, and his body couldn't obey after he chose good, he needed to subdue his body first, himself first.


                  Since sinlessness was important to be with God who was the only one who could help him remove his sinfulness, then Adam needed to be with God. But he couldn't, because he had become sinful, and only the pure can be in the presence of God.



                  Psalms 24:3Who may ascend onto the hill of the LORD? And who may stand in His holy place?


                  Matt 5:8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.



                  If that is a puzzle, here's another one. Adam was in God's presence in the beginning, but he already had sinful thoughts. How could he be in union with God?


                  We can see God's solution here:



                  Exodus 33:22So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.


                  God explained how Moses could be in His presence. He created a cleft in the Rock. Somehow the placing of Moses in the Rock made Moses safe while in the presence of God, needed to enable him to bring people out of the world, and turn to God, blessing the world in this way, subduing creation.


                  By avoiding the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam could stay in the garden, which was the way he could continue to be in union with God.


                  This is why Jesus prayed God would give this union to His disciples.


                  John 17:22The glory which You have given Me I also have given to them, so that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected [g]in unity, so that the world may [h]know that You sent Me, and You loved them, just as You loved Me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You


                  When Adam disobeyed, the Garden could not continue to be what the cleft in the Rock was. Further, when his children disobeyed, the garden became even more unable to do what it was supposed to do.


                  Quote

                  We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

                  The final atonement must be simultaneously like a sheep who dies and like the high priest who presents the sacrifice. This final high priest is described in Isa. 53 as the servant of the Lord. He presents his own body as a guilt offering (Isa. 53:10) and dies (Isa. 53:9). Like a sin offering where the body of the animal is carried outside the camp, he dies outside the camp (Heb. 13:11-14). Then he will “see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand” (Isa. 53:10). He will live again. As the high priest now living he goes through the rest of the steps in the sacrificial system. That is, he presents the blood of the sacrifice, his own blood (Heb. 9:12). The blood has already been poured out on the earth as he died, cleansing the ground itself.


                  https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/



                  Christ's death cleansed the old man in Adam, creating the new man in Christ. In this Body of Christ, we can again be in union with God.


                  However to enter the Kingdom, we must be born again, have a new spirit which trusts God to help us overcome the obstacle blocking entry, just like He helped Caleb defeat the Amalekites preventing entry into the Promised Land. Only trust allows God to help. Which is why we must bear fruit, create trust, by benefiting from the trust creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, which we will receive if we believe God will help us overcome the obstacle.


                  Hear with belief, receive the Spirit, hear the message of the Spirit that God saves, believe, that is, perfect our belief, prove that belief is real, enter the Kingdom of God.


                  Gal 3:1a]You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of [b]the Law, or by hearing [c]with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you [f]suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do it by works of [h]the Law, or by hearing [i]with faith?


                  James 2:21But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called a friend of God.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                    The Saving results of the Death of Christ


                    How does the death of Christ result in the saving of believers?



                    We must keep in mind that salvation must restore the losses recorded in the Bible. This may be obvious, but let's think about it. If I say someone is saved from sickness, it means he is healthy, has gone back to a previous state, his lost health is recovered. So if I say God's children are saved, it means I can subdue the earth again, my job which gives me gains that do not rust and perish has come back to me. Salvation may include other things, but it must not exclude this. There must be something in salvation which takes care of this loss, recorded right there in Scripture, right in the beginning, the loss of having a life with substance.


                    So what did Adam lose, which led to loss of this life, which was regained by what Jesus did, saved, restored, brought back?


                    We can see that Adam lost his sinlessness. He needed that sinlessness to be in God's presence, because only together with God could he complete creation, like children complete projects, like baking a cake or building a hot rod, with the help of their parents. God made increation incomplete, so that He could see Adam bear the fruit of righteousness, which He delighted in seeing, like a Gardener takes pleasure in seeing fruit on His plants, expressed in the subduing of the earth, itself a sign that Adam and God were in union. Since Adam was himself incomplete, his mind couldn't differentiate between good and evil, and his body couldn't obey after he chose good, he needed to subdue his body first, himself first.


                    Since sinlessness was important to be with God who was the only one who could help him remove his sinfulness, then Adam needed to be with God. But he couldn't, because he had become sinful, and only the pure can be in the presence of God.



                    Psalms 24:3Who may ascend onto the hill of the LORD? And who may stand in His holy place?


                    Matt 5:8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.



                    If that is a puzzle, here's another one. Adam was in God's presence in the beginning, but he already had sinful thoughts. How could he be in union with God?


                    We can see God's solution here:



                    Exodus 33:22So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by.


                    God explained how Moses could be in His presence. He created a cleft in the Rock. Somehow the placing of Moses in the Rock made Moses safe while in the presence of God, needed to enable him to bring people out of the world, and turn to God, blessing the world in this way, subduing creation.


                    By avoiding the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam could stay in the garden, which was the way he could continue to be in union with God.


                    This is why Jesus prayed God would give this union to His disciples.


                    John 17:22The glory which You have given Me I also have given to them, so that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected [g]in unity, so that the world may [h]know that You sent Me, and You loved them, just as You loved Me. 24Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You


                    When Adam disobeyed, the Garden could not continue to be what the cleft in the Rock was. Further, when his children disobeyed, the garden became even more unable to do what it was supposed to do.


                    Quote

                    We may return to the same conclusion that we reached before: the sacrifice of animals is inadequate to achieve final cleansing, nor can it cleanse anything more than the copies of heavenly things. Then who will bring the definitive sacrifice? A man must do it. A similar point is made indirectly in Num. 35:33-34: “Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it. Do not defile the land where you live and where I dwell, for I, the LORD, dwell among the Israelites.” When a man had shed blood, the man must die. But there is one exception, when the blood of the death of the high priest releases a manslaughterer to return home (Num. 35:25-28). The blood of the high priest has special value. In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

                    The final atonement must be simultaneously like a sheep who dies and like the high priest who presents the sacrifice. This final high priest is described in Isa. 53 as the servant of the Lord. He presents his own body as a guilt offering (Isa. 53:10) and dies (Isa. 53:9). Like a sin offering where the body of the animal is carried outside the camp, he dies outside the camp (Heb. 13:11-14). Then he will “see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand” (Isa. 53:10). He will live again. As the high priest now living he goes through the rest of the steps in the sacrificial system. That is, he presents the blood of the sacrifice, his own blood (Heb. 9:12). The blood has already been poured out on the earth as he died, cleansing the ground itself.


                    https://frame-poythress.org/ebooks/t...-law-of-moses/



                    Christ's death cleansed the old man in Adam, creating the new man in Christ. In this Body of Christ, we can again be in union with God.


                    However to enter the Kingdom, we must be born again, have a new spirit which trusts God to help us overcome the obstacle blocking entry, just like He helped Caleb defeat the Amalekites preventing entry into the Promised Land. Only trust allows God to help. Which is why we must bear fruit, create trust, by benefiting from the trust creating ministry of the Holy Spirit, which we will receive if we believe God will help us overcome the obstacle.


                    Hear with belief, receive the Spirit, hear the message of the Spirit that God saves, believe, that is, perfect our belief, prove that belief is real, enter the Kingdom of God.


                    Gal 3:1a]You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by works of [b]the Law, or by hearing [c]with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun [d]by the Spirit, are you now [e]being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you [f]suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works [g]miracles among you, do it by works of [h]the Law, or by hearing [i]with faith?


                    James 2:21But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and [o]as a result of the works, faith was [p]perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called a friend of God.
                    Thats what this thread is about. Have you read the points so far?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post
                      The Death of Christ alone saved them he died for, namely the Elect, the Sheep, since by His One Offering they were sanctified unto God once and for all Heb 10:10

                      10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.5
                      There's a difference in your doctrine from mine. For example, the point above differs from my view. You believe that Christ died for the elect alone, individuals, based on Rom 9:12.

                      However, it's clear that God chose nations, not individuals, for cutting off, punishment, so that His power could be demonstrated on the disobedient, causing men to come out from the world, and serve Him instead, just like He hardened Egypt, so that it would be a vessel of wrath, causing men's hearts to melt in fear and turn to serve God instead. Egypt faced God's wrath, but not the mixed multitude who turned to serve God.

                      Genesis 25:22But the children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is so, why am I in this condition?” So she went to inquire of the LORD. 23And the LORD said to her,

                      “Two nations are in your womb;

                      And two peoples will be separated from your body;

                      And one people will be stronger than the other;

                      And the older will serve the younger.”

                      Nations not individuals, are being described. Esau never served Jacob, but Edom did serve Israel.
                      Last edited by footwasher; 01-03-2021, 01:25 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by footwasher View Post

                        There's a difference in your doctrine from mine. For example, the point above differs from my view. You believe that Christ died for the elect alone, individuals, based on Rom 9:12.

                        However, it's clear that God chose nations, not individuals, for cutting off, punishment, so that His power could be demonstrated on the disobedient, causing men to come out from the world, and serve Him instead, just like He hardened Egypt, so that it would be a vessel of wrath, causing men's hearts to melt in fear and turn to serve God instead. Egypt faced God's wrath, but not the mixed multitude who turned to serve God.

                        Genesis 25:22But the children struggled together within her; and she said, “If it is so, why am I in this condition?” So she went to inquire of the LORD. 23And the LORD said to her,

                        “Two nations are in your womb;

                        And two peoples will be separated from your body;

                        And one people will be stronger than the other;

                        And the older will serve the younger.”

                        Nations not individuals, are being described. Esau never served Jacob, but Edom did serve Israel.
                        Do you see what Christs death did here ?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by brightfame52 View Post

                          Do you see what Christs death did here ?
                          You must know that footwasher is highly unorthodox in his beliefs. He doesn't hold to the tenets of faith that are scripturally sound.

                          I usually ignore him.


                          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Brightflame, and welcome from me too! If you are arguing for limited atonement, I have a question:

                            What is the good news that the non-elect are being commanded to repent and believe? That God loves other people? That the elect's sins have been paid for?

                            Now the reply might be that "repent and believe the good news" is only directed really to the elect. But this verse seems to indicate differently:

                            2 Thess. 2:10 They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

                            What then is the truth, that if they had loved it, would have saved them, if Christ did not die for them? What can Paul mean, if there is no atonement for them? His statement seems to imply clearly that the alternative to their unbelief was salvation.

                            2 Thess. 2:12 ... and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

                            Why are they condemned for not believing that God does not love them, that Christ did not pay the price for their sins, for refusing to believe that there is no atonement for them?

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                              You must know that footwasher is highly unorthodox in his beliefs. He doesn't hold to the tenets of faith that are scripturally sound.

                              I usually ignore him.
                              Correction. I'm unorthodox, not conforming to the majority view. But the Reformation did not conform to the majority view either. And the New Reformation, of which the New Perspective is one aspect, doesn't conform either.

                              However, we are Scripturally sound. Confirmed by how the majority view cannot stand against the reformations' mission to form Scripturally based views.

                              If you think different, prove it. It does need someone with substance, though.
                              Last edited by footwasher; 01-03-2021, 07:54 PM.

                              Comment

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