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The Death Of Jan Crouch

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  • #91
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    Ok, I'm reading through the "Spiritual Shipwreck..." one, and I am frankly unimpressed. I find him to be in error in every paragraph so far.
    Reading your breakdown, I'm sort of reminded of Hank Hanegraaff's Christianity In Crisis: The 21st Century which I thought had plenty of great insights into issues within the Word of Faith movement, but was greatly hampered by cherry-picking some really oddball and unusual cases, or by misinterpreting some of the hyperbole used by certain pastors at certain times. I've noticed that a lot of pastors in those circles will start off a sermon with some super crazy exclamation intended to get people all wide eyed and leaning forward in their seats,

    Pastor: "GOD IS DEAD!!",
    Parishioners: -gasp- "What did he just say? Did he just say 'God is dead'?"
    Pastor: "'God IS DEAD!', claim the foolhardy of this world, but we know that God is a living Spirit, and through his Spirit we have everlasting life!"
    Parishioners: -applause-

    This is a pretty weak example really, and I've seen some sermons where I'm thinking "what is this guy talking about?", and then I find the pastor walking it all back in the last 10 minutes of the sermon, or tying things off in a more-or-less orthodox fashion by the end of the whole thing. I don't really care for that sermon style...it seems like a product of the church revival period which I imagine was meant to be as much entertainment as it was educational, but anyhow, most folks in the Word of Faith movement know that when the pastor is sort of going off the rails into some pretty bizarro stuff that he'll eventually move it back into orthodoxy, and that seems to be lost on a lot of people who aren't that familiar with the movement. It's a shame that there are so many portions of the Hanegraaff's book that's like that because I think it's a great tool for those who are in the movement to expose some of the more heterodox teaching and have people rethink some of the stranger aspects of the movement, but I know that anyone in that movement who's pretty plugged in would put it down after a couple chapters because they wouldn't recognize any of the stranger or hyperbolic things he mentions in their own experiences.



    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

    We do not see the biblical gift of languages being exercised today for a lot of reasons. For a lot of reasons. Number one, the function of the gift has already been fulfilled. There’s no longer a need for it. Those gifts have ceased. After we get past about the year A.D. 58 chronologically in the New
    Testament, no more tongues, no more interpretation of tongues, no more physical healing. Those
    gifts just seem to fade out of operation, even while many of the apostles were still alive.


    I question whether Justin has any clue what the "Biblical" gift really is, so naturally I am among those who dispute the notion that it is not practiced today.

    I see that he does not understand what the function of the gift is -- prayer, praise, self-edification -- so he errs in believing that function to have been fulfilled.

    I see that Scripture teaches that the gifts will "cease" when the Church is mature and the Lord returns, so he errs in there.

    Regarding his assertion about A.D. 58 and the NT record, the adage "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" applies.
    The A.D. 58 thing is demonstrably wrong anyways. The Church Fathers talk about the function of the gifts without drop off well into 3rd century.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      The A.D. 58 thing is demonstrably wrong anyways. The Church Fathers talk about the function of the gifts without drop off well into 3rd century.
      I don't see much evidence of tongues or their interpretation, but there is never a drop off in physical healing; prophecy, while rarer, continues as well.
      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
      sigpic
      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        I don't see much evidence of tongues or their interpretation, but there is never a drop off in physical healing; prophecy, while rarer, continues as well.
        Source: The Shepherd of Hermas (Book II, Commandment 11)

        Try the man who has the Divine Spirit by his life. First, he who has the Divine Spirit proceeding from above is meek, and peaceable, and humble, and refrains from all iniquity and the vain desire of this world, and contents himself with fewer wants than those of other men, and when asked he makes no reply; nor does he speak privately, nor when man wishes the spirit to speak does the Holy Spirit speak, but it speaks only when God wishes it to speak. When, then, a man having the Divine Spirit comes into an assembly of righteous men who have faith in the Divine Spirit, and this assembly of men offers up prayer to God, then the angel of the prophetic Spirit, who is destined for him, fills the man; and the man being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaks to the multitude as the Lord wishes. Thus, then, will the Spirit of Divinity become manifest.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Source: Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 6) by Irenaeus

        1. Now God shall be glorified in His handiwork, fitting it so as to be conformable to, and modelled after, His own Son. For by the hands of the Father, that is, by the Son and the Holy Spirit, man, and not [merely] a part of man, was made in the likeness of God. Now the soul and the spirit are certainly a part of the man, but certainly not the man; for the perfect man consists in the commingling and the union of the soul receiving the spirit of the Father, and the admixture of that fleshly nature which was moulded after the image of God. For this reason does the apostle declare, "We speak wisdom among them that are perfect," [1 Corinthians 2:6] terming those persons perfect who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms spiritual, they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Source: Against Marcion (Book V Chapter 8) by Tertullian

        But that we may now leave the subject of spiritual gifts, facts themselves will be enough to prove which of us acts rashly in claiming them for his God, and whether it is possible that they are opposed to our side, even if the Creator promised them for His Christ who is not yet revealed, as being destined only for the Jews, to have their operations in His time, in His Christ, and among His people. Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; [1 Corinthians 14:25] let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer [1 Corinthians 14:26] — only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him; let him show to me also, that any woman of boastful tongue in his community has ever prophesied from among those specially holy sisters of his. Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator; therefore without doubt the Christ, and the Spirit, and the apostle, belong severally to my God. Here, then, is my frank avowal for anyone who cares to require it.

        © Copyright Original Source



        Novation and Origen also mention speaking in tongues, and, though Augustine is unfamiliar with anyone who speaks in tongues in his day, he is familiar with a type of singing in tongues that he labeled jubilation. There's probably a few other places it's mentioned as well that I'm not remembering.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Reading your breakdown, I'm sort of reminded of Hank Hanegraaff's Christianity In Crisis: The 21st Century which I thought had plenty of great insights into issues within the Word of Faith movement, but was greatly hampered by cherry-picking some really oddball and unusual cases, or by misinterpreting some of the hyperbole used by certain pastors at certain times. I've noticed that a lot of pastors in those circles will start off a sermon with some super crazy exclamation intended to get people all wide eyed and leaning forward in their seats,

          Pastor: "GOD IS DEAD!!",
          Parishioners: -gasp- "What did he just say? Did he just say 'God is dead'?"
          Pastor: "'God IS DEAD!', claim the foolhardy of this world, but we know that God is a living Spirit, and through his Spirit we have everlasting life!"
          Parishioners: -applause-

          This is a pretty weak example really, and I've seen some sermons where I'm thinking "what is this guy talking about?", and then I find the pastor walking it all back in the last 10 minutes of the sermon, or tying things off in a more-or-less orthodox fashion by the end of the whole thing. I don't really care for that sermon style...it seems like a product of the church revival period which I imagine was meant to be as much entertainment as it was educational, but anyhow, most folks in the Word of Faith movement know that when the pastor is sort of going off the rails into some pretty bizarro stuff that he'll eventually move it back into orthodoxy, and that seems to be lost on a lot of people who aren't that familiar with the movement. It's a shame that there are so many portions of the Hanegraaff's book that's like that because I think it's a great tool for those who are in the movement to expose some of the more heterodox teaching and have people rethink some of the stranger aspects of the movement, but I know that anyone in that movement who's pretty plugged in would put it down after a couple chapters because they wouldn't recognize any of the stranger or hyperbolic things he mentions in their own experiences. ...
          That was more or less my opinion of the original edition. I have that newer edition on my shelf for reference, but since I'm no longer "in" the movement, and am rarely even "around" it, I have not been motivated to read it. And since it sounds as if it shares the weaknesses of the original, I probably won't bother. The original was copiously "documented," but the citations were from varied and multitudinous sources impossible (from a practical standpoint) to track down and observe in context; these were strung together in a sort of "Systematic Theology" to give the illusion that all Faith preachers teach all those things all the time.

          But that isn't even close to the case.

          I don't think anyone will improve on Rob Bowman's 2001 description in The Word-Faith Controversy: "A mess." The Movement is too disparate and fluid to allow the whole of it to be classified as orthodox, heterodox, or heretical. Even particular individuals can't be classified consistently, because they say different things at different times, especially when speaking off the cuff.

          Bowman's whole book was good, but by far my favorite part was where he recounted basically tricking one of his CRI associates into labeling Walter Martin a heretic.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Federalist.

          Nationalist Christian.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Proud member of the this space left blank community.

          Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

          Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

          Justice for Matthew Perna!

          Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
            Mossy, reading what NorridRad has posted of the transcript, NONE of it is addressing WoF - it is all an attack on Charismatics. I think most Pentecostals would have a problem with what MacArthur says here, and it's difficult to take seriously your assertion that MacArthur has no problem with them in general. At the very least, MacArthur is making a category error here; he is absolutely lumping Pentecostalism with WoF in this presentation.

            And I agree that Pentecostals tend to take things too far, but IMO the cessationism of MacArthur goes too far in the opposite direction.
            I addressed roughly the first 30% of the transcript. I'll continue if anyone wants more pedantic opining. But the rest of the transcript does get more into the weirder and Word-Faithier areas, so I'll have considerably fewer objections.
            Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

            Beige Federalist.

            Nationalist Christian.

            "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

            Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

            Proud member of the this space left blank community.

            Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

            Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

            Justice for Matthew Perna!

            Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

            Comment


            • #96
              At the GTY Strange Fire site, I have completed reading all the transcripts by MacArthur and Peters, and one by Phil Johnson.

              I also read a couple of Justin's blog posts.

              That's about all I can stand.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                Novation and Origen also mention speaking in tongues, and, though Augustine is unfamiliar with anyone who speaks in tongues in his day, he is familiar with a type of singing in tongues that he labeled jubilation. There's probably a few other places it's mentioned as well that I'm not remembering.
                Yeah, I knew there was a little bit (which is why I said "not much" instead of "no" evidence).
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  Yeah, I knew there was a little bit (which is why I said "not much" instead of "no" evidence).
                  Oh ok, sorry about that. I misunderstood.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                    At the GTY Strange Fire site, I have completed reading all the transcripts by MacArthur and Peters, and one by Phil Johnson.

                    I also read a couple of Justin's blog posts.

                    That's about all I can stand.
                    Yes, personally I find a lot of the material regarding cessationism from that camp hard to go through....especially considering the amount of unnecessary pejorative, bad exegesis, fallacious reasoning, and bad facts...it honestly breaks my heart that some people eat it up like they do. I mean honestly...it breaks my heart...and it breaks my heart from someone who used to lean that way. And it breaks my heart in a way that it breaks my heart when I see people led astray by some of the crazies in the WoF, where it all becomes about them..

                    For some reason, when I have listened to some of the JMac stuff, I am often reminded of what John Wesley said regarding the matter:

                    "I was fully convinced of what I had once suspected ... that the grand reason why the miraculous gifts were so soon withdrawn was not only that faith and holiness were well nigh lost, but that dry, formal orthodox men began even then to ridicule whatever gifts they had not themselves, and to decry them all as either madness or imposture."

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
                      Yes, personally I find a lot of the material regarding cessationism from that camp hard to go through....especially considering the amount of unnecessary pejorative, bad exegesis, fallacious reasoning, and bad facts...it honestly breaks my heart that some people eat it up like they do. I mean honestly...it breaks my heart...and it breaks my heart from someone who used to lean that way. And it breaks my heart in a way that it breaks my heart when I see people led astray by some of the crazies in the WoF, where it all becomes about them..

                      For some reason, when I have listened to some of the JMac stuff, I am often reminded of what John Wesley said regarding the matter:

                      "I was fully convinced of what I had once suspected ... that the grand reason why the miraculous gifts were so soon withdrawn was not only that faith and holiness were well nigh lost, but that dry, formal orthodox men began even then to ridicule whatever gifts they had not themselves, and to decry them all as either madness or imposture."
                      I fluctuate between sadness and anger. It gives me the impulse to minutely dissect all of those transcripts by MacArthur, Peters, and Johnson -- which is pretty much the way I reacted to WoF the first few years after I left it. I don't want to accuse them of malice and dishonesty, but it's hard not to.

                      I would like to respectfully challenge anyone interested to go to this page, read or listen to MacArthur's "Strange Fire," "An Appeal to Charismatic Friends," and "Testing the Spirits"; Johnson's "Is there a Baby in the Charismatic Bathwater," and the one I started with, Justin Peters' "Spiritual Shipwreck of the Word-Faith Movement," and still maintain that those men oppose only "excesses," and not the whole of Charismatic Christianity.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      Nationalist Christian.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                      Comment

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