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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


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What is the Orthodox Preterist position on the Parousia?

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  • What is the Orthodox Preterist position on the Parousia?

    Do they hold Paul's parousia (at least in some places) to be different than the parousia elsewhere?
    -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
    Sir James Jeans

    -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
    Sir Isaac Newton

  • #2
    I don't understand your question.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #3
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      I don't understand your question.

      Does the parousia mentioned in the New Testament concerning Christ refer to one event or 2?
      (Like for instance, 1 Thessalonians)
      -The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine.
      Sir James Jeans

      -This most beautiful system (The Universe) could only proceed from the dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.All variety of created objects which represent order and Life in the Universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, whom I call the Lord God.
      Sir Isaac Newton

      Comment


      • #4
        I think as long as they acknowledge a future bodily resurrection, it is considered orthodox. However, some of them have what I consider fairly stupid beliefs, such as a first-century rapture. Most preterists just distinguish the 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 passages from Matthew 24, and there are disagreements on most of the other passages.
        Last edited by Obsidian; 02-20-2014, 12:21 AM.

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        • #5
          Erm? Are there preterists out there that believe in a rapture at all?

          Comment


          • #6
            I've seen preterists actually argue that God snatched away all the Christians in the first century, leaving the church to start over. To me, that concept runs counter to pretty much the entire concept of even having a church. It contradicts the mustard seed parable, for example. Also, it contradicts the fairly obvious implication from John 21:23 that John eventually died.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Quantum Weirdness View Post
              Does the parousia mentioned in the New Testament concerning Christ refer to one event or 2?
              (Like for instance, 1 Thessalonians)
              Christ came in judgment in AD 70. 1 Thes. 4 is a future coming. Does that help?
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                I've seen preterists actually argue that God snatched away all the Christians in the first century, leaving the church to start over.
                That's an extraordinary claim, which I have a difficult time believing. Do you have any actual evidence for this, or did you just misunderstand something?

                To me, that concept runs counter to pretty much the entire concept of even having a church. It contradicts the mustard seed parable, for example.

                Also, it contradicts the fairly obvious implication from John 21:23 that John eventually died.
                You keep using the word "contradicts". I don't think it means what you think it means. I agree that John eventually died, but I disagree that the implication is obvious from John 21:23. Wasn't John still living when he wrote it?
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Piggo Obsidian is correct that some hyperpreterists believe in a literal first century rapture event. But it is a tiny number out of an already tiny group.
                  The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

                  sigpic

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bad Pig
                    You keep using the word "contradicts". I don't think it means what you think it means. I agree that John eventually died, but I disagree that the implication is obvious from John 21:23. Wasn't John still living when he wrote it?
                    21:23 was written to counter the notion that John was not going to die. It is possible that John wrote 21:23 to explain that he was probably going to die, and then got raptured away without dying. But I doubt it.

                    Do you have any actual evidence for this, or did you just misunderstand something?
                    http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/20...-last-trumpet/

                    Here is one example, and the guy who wrote it is not a full preterist. Apparently he argues that only the Jewish Christians were raptured, which doesn't make much sense to me because the passage he is discussing was written to Greek Christians.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                      21:23 was written to counter the notion that John was not going to die. It is possible that John wrote 21:23 to explain that he was probably going to die, and then got raptured away without dying. But I doubt it.
                      John 21:23 was written to counter the belief that John was not going to die before Christ's return, but it does not deny the possibility; John is essentially repeating for emphasis Jesus' admonition to worry about oneself, not others.
                      http://www.bullartistry.com.au/wp/20...-last-trumpet/

                      Here is one example, and the guy who wrote it is not a full preterist. Apparently he argues that only the Jewish Christians were raptured, which doesn't make much sense to me because the passage he is discussing was written to Greek Christians.
                      Thanks. I agree, that makes no sense (regardless of who were the intended recipients of the letter). Not sure if that whole site is intended to be a parody or not.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        John 21:23 was written to counter the belief that John was not going to die before Christ's return, but it does not deny the possibility
                        Why counter the belief, if the belief were correct?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Piggo and Ob, that site is not exactly teaching what Ob claimed. It makes no claim that all the believers were raptured and the church had to start over. There are however hypers who teach that. Piggo that site is not a paroday,I am good friends with the owner Mike Bull though obviously we disagree, he subscribes to the James Jordan school of interpretive maximalism.
                          The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

                          sigpic

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                            Piggo and Ob, that site is not exactly teaching what Ob claimed. It makes no claim that all the believers were raptured and the church had to start over. There are however hypers who teach that. Piggo that site is not a paroday,I am good friends with the owner Mike Bull though obviously we disagree, he subscribes to the James Jordan school of interpretive maximalism.
                            Oh, his last name is Bull. That explains the site name, then.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                              Why counter the belief, if the belief were correct?
                              I already addressed that.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment

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