Announcement

Collapse

Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The 7 year covenant conundrum

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The 7 year covenant conundrum

    I'm having an issue with Daniel 9:27. I don't buy either the futurist or preterist interpretations. I don't buy the preterist interpretation because it's just outright ridiculous to me (at least the interpretation explained here).

    I have a problem with the futurist view also for two reasons: a) no one knows the day or hour yet once the covenant is made, you just count 7 years and wala; b) neither the specific 7 years nor the covenant is mentioned anywhere in the NT (I find this odd especially in 2 Thess 2).

    This is not intended as a debate thread. Please explain your interpretation, whether preterist or futurist (if you're a futurist, please explain why this is not mentioned anywhere in the NT). The best interpretation wins.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  • #2
    Dr. John Peter Lange [John Peter Lange, Commentary on the Holy Scriptures, Daniel, p.205-212] gives an exhaustive review of opinions far too numerous to account for. The multitude of interpretations can be divided into four groups:
    (1) a traditional Jewish interpretation, which finds support from unbelieving scholars, that the seventy weeks culminate with the death of the High Priest Onias III and the desolation of the sacred altar by Antiochus IV Epiphanes;
    (2) the interpretations of early Jewish writers during the Christian era, which interprets the culmination of the seventy weeks and the abomination of desolation as the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and the Roman army in 70 AD;
    (3) the traditional Christian view, much like Josephus and the Jewish writers which attribute the desolation of abomination to Titus in 70 AD, but see Jesus as the fulfillment of the Anointed One; and
    (4) a futurist view, which agrees with the early church fathers in interpreting Jesus as the Anointed One, but places the abomination of desolation at some future date.

    All four view have their dificulties, I admit. And I realize that I am in the small minority of Christians in holding to the first (Jewish) interpretation.

    Look at the events of the seventieth week and compare them with the events recorded in history from 171 BC to the rededication of the altar in December 164 BC.

    The anointed one at the early years of Antiochus Epiphanes was Onias III, the high priest of Israel, a very godly and righteous leader of the Jews. At a time when there was no king, he was not only the religious leader of the Jews, but also a very influential leader in the daily lives of the people.

    But after Antiochus Epiphanes took control of Syria Jason, the wicked brother of Onias, bribed Antiochus into deposing Onias and giving him the office of high priest. That was in 174 BC. According to 2 Maccabees 4:23 three years later the treacherous Menelaus persuaded Antiochus with a larger bribe to depose Jason and make him high priest instead. It was during his trip to Antioch in the winter of 171-170 BC, while Antiochus was out of the country, that Menelaus persuaded Andronicus to murder Onias. (History does not record for us the exact date.)

    The phrase, “and have nothing,” literally translated means “and there shall not be for himself.” The verb “there shall be” is implied. The sentence suggests the fact that he would have no heir to succeed his position, and that another would take his place.

    “And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week.” (Daniel 9:27)
    The covenant referred to is the agreement between Antiochus and Menelaus and his supporters made in 171 BC, establishing Menelaus as high priest, a position which gave him the authority to enforce Hellenistic culture upon the Jews. This covenant is described in 1 Maccabees 1:11-15:

    In those days lawless men came forth from Israel, and misled many, saying, "Let us go and make a covenant with the Gentiles round about us, for since we separated from them many evils have come upon us." This proposal pleased them, and some of the people eagerly went to the king. He authorized them to observe the ordinances of the Gentiles. So they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, according to Gentile custom, and removed the marks of circumcision, and abandoned the holy covenant. They joined with the Gentiles and sold themselves to do evil. [1 Maccabees 1:11-15, RSV]
    "’And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.’"
    167 BC, the midpoint of the seventieth week, was a very eventful year. Apollonius and his 22,000 mercenaries besieged the city on a sabbath day, tore down its walls of defense, and constructed the Akra, a fortress to hold the Syrian army. Shortly after that Antiochus made the decree forbidding any worship of the God of Israel and demanded that the people take part in the worship of Zeus. Then came the abomination of desolation, a statue of Zeus bearing the likeness of Antiochus, placed in the temple of God. A few days later was the sacrifice of a pig in the sanctuary and the sprinkling of pig blood upon the altar and upon the utensils of the temple of God.

    Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege upon the altar of burnt offering. They also built altars in the surrounding cities of Judah, and burned incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets. The books of the law which they found they tore to pieces and burned with fire. Where the book of the covenant was found in the possession of any one, or if any one adhered to the law, the decree of the king condemned him to death. They kept using violence against Israel, against those found month after month in the cities. And on the twenty-fifth day of the month they offered sacrifice on the altar which was upon the altar of burnt Transported with rage, he conceived the idea of turning upon the Jews the injury done by those who had put him to flight; so he ordered his charioteer to drive without stopping until he completed the journey. But the judgment of heaven rode with him! For in his arrogance he said, "When I get there I will make Jerusalem a cemetery of Jews." But the all-seeing Lord, the God of Israel, struck him an incurable and unseen blow. As soon as he ceased speaking he was seized with a pain in his bowels for which there was no relief and with sharp internal tortures – and that very justly, for he had tortured the bowels of others with many and strange inflictions. Yet he did not in any way stop his insolence, but was even more filled with arrogance, breathing fire in his rage against the Jews, and giving orders to hasten the journey. And so it came about that he fell out of his chariot as it was rushing along, and the fall was so hard as to torture every limb of his body. Thus he who had just been thinking that he could command the waves of the sea, in his superhuman arrogance, and imagining that he could weigh the high mountains in a balance, was brought down to earth and carried in a litter, making the power of God manifest to all. And so the ungodly man's body swarmed with worms, and while he was still living in anguish and pain, his flesh rotted away, and because of his stench the whole army felt revulsion at his decay. Because of his intolerable stench no one was able to carry the man who a little while before had thought that he could touch the stars of heaven. Then it was that, broken in spirit, he began to lose much of his arrogance and to come to his senses under the scourge of God, for he was tortured with pain every moment. [2 Maccabees 9:4-11, RSV]offering. [1 Maccabees 1:54-59, RSV]
    “‘even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.’" (Daniel 9:27)
    It was only a few months, how many we cannot be sure, after the cleansing of the Holy of Holies that Antiochus died a horrible death:

    Transported with rage, he conceived the idea of turning upon the Jews the injury done by those who had put him to flight; so he ordered his charioteer to drive without stopping until he completed the journey. But the judgment of heaven rode with him! For in his arrogance he said, "When I get there I will make Jerusalem a cemetery of Jews." But the all-seeing Lord, the God of Israel, struck him an incurable and unseen blow. As soon as he ceased speaking he was seized with a pain in his bowels for which there was no relief and with sharp internal tortures – and that very justly, for he had tortured the bowels of others with many and strange inflictions. Yet he did not in any way stop his insolence, but was even more filled with arrogance, breathing fire in his rage against the Jews, and giving orders to hasten the journey. And so it came about that he fell out of his chariot as it was rushing along, and the fall was so hard as to torture every limb of his body. Thus he who had just been thinking that he could command the waves of the sea, in his superhuman arrogance, and imagining that he could weigh the high mountains in a balance, was brought down to earth and carried in a litter, making the power of God manifest to all. And so the ungodly man's body swarmed with worms, and while he was still living in anguish and pain, his flesh rotted away, and because of his stench the whole army felt revulsion at his decay. Because of his intolerable stench no one was able to carry the man who a little while before had thought that he could touch the stars of heaven. Then it was that, broken in spirit, he began to lose much of his arrogance and to come to his senses under the scourge of God, for he was tortured with pain every moment. [2 Maccabees 9:4-11, RSV]

    Comment


    • #3
      I thought that Albert Barne's old commentary had an interesting take on this.

      Summary: the "seven years" represent the ministry of the church. The first half was Jesus' ministry in the incarnation. Then the crucifixion was the sacrifice "once for all" to end the temple sacrifices. Then the ministry of the apostles as they left the tenants of Judaism behind and went to the Gentiles preaching faith, not law.

      (2) The other inquiry is whether there was that in what is regarded as the fulfillment of this, which fairly corresponds with the prediction. I have attempted above (on Daniel 9:25) to show that this refers to the Messiah properly so called - the Lord Jesus Christ. The inquiry now is, therefore, whether we can find in his life and death what is a fair fulfillment of these reasonable expectations. In order to see this, it is proper to review these points in their order:

      (a) The period, then, which is embraced in the prophecy, is seven years, and it is necessary to find in his life and work something which would be accomplished during these seven years which could be properly referred to as “confirming the covenant with many.” The main difficulty in the case is on this point, and I acknowledge that this seems to me to be the most embarrassing portion of the prophecy, and that the solutions which can be given of this are less satisfactory than those that pertain to any other part. Were it not that the remarkable clause “in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease,” were added, I admit that the natural interpretation would be, that he would do this personally, and that we might look for something which he would himself accomplish during the whole period of seven years. That clause, however, looks as if some remarkable event were to occur in the middle of that period, for the fact that he would tense the sacrifice and oblation to cease - that is, would bring the rites of the temple to a close - shows that what is meant by “confirming the covenant” is different from the ordinary worship under the ancient economy. No Jew would think of expressing himself thus, or would see how it was practicable to “confirm the covenant” at the same time that all his sacrifices were to cease. The confirming of the covenant, therefore, during that “one week,” must be consistent with some work or event that would cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease in the middle of that period.

      (b) The true fulfillment, it seems to me, is to be found in the bearing of the work of the Saviour on the Hebrew people - the ancient covenant people of God - for about the period of seven years after he entered on his work. Then the particular relation of his work to the Jewish people ceased. It may not be practicable to make out the exact time of “seven years” in reference to this, and it may be admitted that this would not be understood from the prophecy before the things occurred; but still there are a number of circumstances which will show that this interpretation is not only plausibIe, but that it has in its very nature strong probability in its favor. They are such as these:

      (1) The ministry of the Saviour himself was wholly among the Jews, and his work was what would, in their common language, be spoken of as “confirming the covenant; “that is, it would be strengthening the principles of religion, bringing the Divine promises to bear on the mind, and leading men to God, etc.

      (2) This same work was continued by the apostles as they labored among the Jews. They endeavored to do the same thing that their Lord and Master had done, with all the additional sanctions, now derived from his life and death. The whole tendency of their ministry would have been properly expressed in this language: that they endeavored to “confirm the covenant” with the Hebrew people; that is, to bring them to just views of the character of their natural covenant with God; to show them how it was confirmed in the Messiah; to establish the ancient promises; and to bring to bear upon them the sanctions of their law as it was now fulfilled, and ratified, and enlarged through the Messiah. Had the Saviour himself succeeded in this, or had his apostles, it would have been, in fact, only “confirming the ancient covenant” - the covenant made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; the covenant established under Moses, and ratified by so many laws and customs among the people. The whole bearing of the Saviour‘s instructions, and of his followers, was to carry out and fulfill the real design of that ancient institution - to show its true nature and meaning, and to impress it on the hearts of men

      (3) This was continued for about the period here referred to; at least for a period so long that it could properly be represented in round numbers as “one week,” or seven years. The Saviour‘s own ministry continued about half that time; and then the apostles prosecuted the same work, laboring with the Jews for about the other portion, before they turned their attention to the Gentiles, and before the purpose to endearour to bring in the Jewish people was abandoned. They remained in Jerusalem; they preached in the synagogues; they observed the rites of the temple service; they directed their first attention everywhere to the Hebrew people; they had not yet learned that they were to turn away from the “covenant people,” and to go to the Gentiles. It was a slow process by which they were led to this. It required a miracle to convince Peter of it, and to show him that it was right to go to Cornelius Daniel 9:25.

      (4) When this occurred; when the apostles turned away from the Hebrew people, and gave themselves to their labors among the Gentiles, the work of “confirming the covenant” with those to whom the promises had been made, and to whom the law was given, ceased. They were regarded as “broken off” and left, and the hope of success was in the Gentile world. See the reasoning of the apostle Paul in Exodus 24:6; Numbers 12:12; then the middle, or the midst, Judges 16:3. The Vulgate renders it, in dimidio; the Greek, ἐν τῳ ἡμίσει en tō hēmisei Hengstenberg, “the half.” So Lengerke, die Halfte; Luther, mitten. The natural and obvious interpretation is what is expressed in our translation, and that will convey the essential idea in the original. It refers to something which was to occur at about the middle portion of this time, or when about half of this period was elapsed, or to something which it would require half of the “one week,” or seven years, to accomplish. The meaning of the passage is fully met by the supposition that it refers to the Lord Jesus and his work, and that the exact thing that was intended by the prophecy was his death, or his being “cut off,” and thus causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease.

      Whatever difficulties there may be about the “precise” time of our Lord‘s ministry, and whether he celebrated three passovers or four after he entered on his public work, it is agreed on all hands that it lasted about three years and a half - the time referred to here. Though a few have supposed that a longer period was occupied, yet the general belief of the church has coincided in that, and there are few points in history better settled. On the supposition that this pertains to the death of the Lord Jesus, and that it was the design of the prophecy here to refer to the effects of that death, this is the very language which would have been used. If the period of “a week” were for any purpose mentioned, then it would be indispensable to suppose that there would be an allusion to the important event - in fact, the great event which was to occur in the middle of that period, when the ends of the types and ceremonies of the Hebrew people would be accomplished, and a sacrifice made for the sins of the whole world.
      Copyright Statement: These files are public domain.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        I'm having an issue with Daniel 9:27. I don't buy either the futurist or preterist interpretations. I don't buy the preterist interpretation because it's just outright ridiculous to me (at least the interpretation explained here).

        I have a problem with the futurist view also for two reasons: a) no one knows the day or hour yet once the covenant is made, you just count 7 years and wala; b) neither the specific 7 years nor the covenant is mentioned anywhere in the NT (I find this odd especially in 2 Thess 2).

        This is not intended as a debate thread. Please explain your interpretation, whether preterist or futurist (if you're a futurist, please explain why this is not mentioned anywhere in the NT). The best interpretation wins.
        I see it as the events surrounding Christ's time on Earth: there doesn't seem to be any other way to interpret it in view of verse 25: So - Daniel there is speaking of the death of Christ and the destruction of the temple - at that point in his writing.
        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

        Comment


        • #5
          What covenant does "he" come to strengthen/confirm? God's covenant. Which of God's covenants? He made many, with Noah, with Abraham, with Isaac, with Jacob, with Israel, with David, with Christ...

          They're all the same covenant because He's the same God. Some of the conditions change, but that is because we change, not Him.

          Who is the "he" who strengthens/confirms the covenant? This was purposely left ambiguously worded because it would see double fulfillment. The first fulfillment was by Christ, who came 69 "weeks" after the Persian king's decree to restore Jerusalem where the weeks were weeks of years. He provided the "better" covenant; that is, God's covenant given under better conditions which we find easier to fulfill. The Jews rejecting Him, the ruler, led to the destruction of the temple.

          The second fulfillment will be when the Davidic prince who is one of the two witnesses comes to strengthen Christ's covenant by regathering the lost tribes and rebuilding the temple "in times of trouble" (code for the Tribulation). When he is killed by the Antichrist, the Antichrist will then desecrate the temple, proclaiming himself God. I don't understand where the concept of a "peace treaty" came from. The Davidic prince and the Antichrist will certainly not be at peace with one another, being mortal enemies. At any rate, one will not be able to calculate any specific day. For reference, this Davidic prince is called Messiah ben Joseph by the Jews, as differentiated from Messiah ben David.

          Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 50

          4 “In those days, at that time [eschatological code language],”
          declares the Lord,
          “the people of Israel and the people of Judah together
          will go in tears to seek the Lord their God.
          5 They will ask the way to Zion
          and turn their faces toward it.
          They will come and bind themselves to the Lord
          in an everlasting covenant
          that will not be forgotten.

          © Copyright Original Source



          Scripture Verse: Ezekiel 37

          15 The word of the Lord came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

          18 “When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19 say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

          24 “‘My servant David [Davidic prince/two witnesses] will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

          © Copyright Original Source



          Scripture Verse: Jeremiah 30

          This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.”

          4 These are the words the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah: 5 “This is what the Lord says:


          “‘Cries of fear are heard—
          terror, not peace.
          6 Ask and see:
          Can a man bear children?
          Then why do I see every strong man
          with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor,
          every face turned deathly pale?
          7 How awful that day will be!
          No other will be like it.
          It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
          but he will be saved out of it.


          8 “‘In that day,’ declares the Lord Almighty,
          ‘I will break the yoke off their necks
          and will tear off their bonds;
          no longer will foreigners enslave them.
          9 Instead, they will serve the Lord their God
          and David their king,
          whom I will raise up for them.


          10 “‘So do not be afraid, Jacob my servant;
          do not be dismayed, Israel,’
          declares the Lord.
          ‘I will surely save you out of a distant place,
          your descendants from the land of their exile.
          Jacob will again have peace and security,
          and no one will make him afraid.
          11 I am with you and will save you,’
          declares the Lord.
          ‘Though I completely destroy all the nations
          among which I scatter you,
          I will not completely destroy you.
          I will discipline you but only in due measure;
          I will not let you go entirely unpunished.’ ...

          18 “This is what the Lord says:


          “‘I will restore the fortunes of Jacob’s tents
          and have compassion on his dwellings;
          the city will be rebuilt on her ruins,
          and the palace will stand in its proper place.
          19 From them will come songs of thanksgiving
          and the sound of rejoicing.
          I will add to their numbers,
          and they will not be decreased;
          I will bring them honor,
          and they will not be disdained.
          20 Their children will be as in days of old,
          and their community will be established before me;
          I will punish all who oppress them.
          21 Their leader will be one of their own;
          their ruler will arise from among them
          .
          I will bring him near and he will come close to me—
          for who is he who will devote himself
          to be close to me?’
          declares the Lord.
          22 “‘So you will be my people,
          and I will be your God.’”


          23 See, the storm of the Lord
          will burst out in wrath,
          a driving wind swirling down
          on the heads of the wicked.
          24 The fierce anger of the Lord will not turn back
          until he fully accomplishes
          the purposes of his heart.
          In days to come
          you will understand this
          .

          © Copyright Original Source

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seanD
            I'm having an issue with Daniel 9:27. I don't buy either the futurist or preterist interpretations. I don't buy the preterist interpretation because it's just outright ridiculous to me (at least the interpretation explained here).
            I am not preterist but am Amil, and here is my view on Daniels weeks in diagrammatic form. As you can see the number of 'weeks' add up from the decree of Artaxerxes to the promised atonement. To my way of thinking, Daniel's 70 weeks needs no more explanation than this,

            .
            daniels70.png
            "Your name and renown
            is the desire of our hearts."
            (Isaiah 26:8)

            Comment

            Related Threads

            Collapse

            Topics Statistics Last Post
            Started by eschaton, 05-08-2020, 10:59 PM
            60 responses
            3,865 views
            0 likes
            Last Post Dave L
            by Dave L
             
            Started by seanD, 03-26-2020, 12:05 PM
            67 responses
            5,085 views
            0 likes
            Last Post seanD
            by seanD
             
            Started by hamster, 07-05-2015, 01:07 PM
            118 responses
            31,472 views
            0 likes
            Last Post Dave L
            by Dave L
             
            Started by seanD, 02-05-2014, 03:15 PM
            58 responses
            9,608 views
            0 likes
            Last Post Cow Poke  
            Working...
            X