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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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Preterism Question

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  • #16
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Whatever word you were aiming for, I'm fairly certain you missed with "illicit."
    Yeah, thanks for pointing that out...(I should probably think twice about posting after a couple of 14/15 hour days...

    FYI, I think I meant Tacit...


    The mind boggles....
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
      That's a harder question than you probably realize. Do you believe that the destruction of the Temple and the "Holy City" Jerusalem were the "end of the (Jewish) age"? Do you believe the 70 weeks of Daniel are the Tribulation? If you do then it seems obvious that (as Alaskazimm said) that Jesus returned in Judgement in 70 A.D. There is some illicit agreement from some ECF's:

      Clement of Alexadria said:
      "Vespasian rose to the supreme power (Emperor of Rome) and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place” .
      - Which sounds like the abomination of desolation...?

      Origen said:
      "The weeks of years up to the time of Christ the leader that Daniel the prophet predicted were fulfilled"

      -Jewish age is complete?

      Tertullian said:
      "Vespasian vanquished the Jews…and so by the date of his storming Jerusalem, the Jews had completed the seventy weeks foretold by Daniel”
      - Seventieth week of Daniel fulfilled.

      Athanasius said:
      "Jerusalem is to stand till His coming, and thenceforth, prophet and vision cease in Israel . This is why Jerusalem stood till then…that they might be exercised in the types as a preparation for the reality…but from that time forth all prophecy is sealed and the city and Temple taken"

      - Jerusalem stood until Christ came and ascended, then "all prophecy is sealed"


      So, there is some hint(?) that some ECF's thought the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem was a judgement on Israel for the rejection of Christ. That it was the "end of the age" (of the Jews).
      Hope that helps!
      Thank you for these quotes! I haven't read the ECFs, I've been meaning to but haven't got around to it yet, and haven't come across these quotes (or any quotes really) in the context of preterism.

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      • #18
        TL, forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but weren't you talking specifically about "coming of the Lord" such as in Matthew 24:30-31?

        LJ's quotes are discussing Daniel's 70 weeks, which were viewed as different issues. For example, though many of them believed Daniel's 70 weeks was already fulfilled up to the 70 CE destruction, some of them still believed in future events to come. Tertullian, for example, believed that much of Revelation was still future, including a coming antichrist. Athanasius believed in a coming antichrist and that Arians were his forerunners.

        So those quotes that LJ posted are sort of obfuscating what the OP was specifically asking. Is there any extant evidence that Matthew 24:30-31 (or any "coming of Lord" terms in scripture) was interpreted as the 70 CE war.
        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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        • #19
          I just wanted to know about the 70 AD thing. I did not have any particular Scripture in mind and was not proving or disproving anything. I just wanted to understand the particular point, which is evidently thornier than I assumed.

          Dee Dee, I'll pm you. Thanks.


          Sorry if I'm missing anyone - I am totally beat. No where near enough sleep last night and yeah, there was a tornado and all... I'm fine, just tired. I'll check back when I'm coherent...

          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
            Okay, thank you. I appreciate the thoughtful response.

            Making sure I understand, preterists regard the events of 70 AD as a partial fulfillment and not an actual return of Christ?
            I posted this (sort of) in another thread. But why must the "coming of the Son of Man" be interpreted as anything but the fulfillment of Daniel 7:13?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by DeaconZ View Post
              I posted this (sort of) in another thread. But why must the "coming of the Son of Man" be interpreted as anything but the fulfillment of Daniel 7:13?
              Um, I am just getting the particulars straight and am not debating. Someone else can address your question if you like but I can't and won't.

              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

              My Personal Blog

              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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              • #22
                Originally posted by DeaconZ View Post
                I posted this (sort of) in another thread. But why must the "coming of the Son of Man" be interpreted as anything but the fulfillment of Daniel 7:13?
                Scripture Verse: Matthew 25

                31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

                © Copyright Original Source



                That's why. When Christ comes, universal judgment happens. That is why the Jews referred to the day of judgment as "the last day." It's also why the disciples conflated the destruction of the temple (obvious judgment on the Jews) with the last day. At the time, they could not have understood or predicted a local judgment on the Jews followed by a larger judgment on the world after the news of Christ's kingdom had been preached for two millennia.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

                  Dee Dee, I'll pm you. Thanks.
                  No problema:)
                  The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

                  sigpic

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Darfius View Post
                    Scripture Verse: Matthew 25

                    31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    That's why. When Christ comes, universal judgment happens. That is why the Jews referred to the day of judgment as "the last day." It's also why the disciples conflated the destruction of the temple (obvious judgment on the Jews) with the last day. At the time, they could not have understood or predicted a local judgment on the Jews followed by a larger judgment on the world after the news of Christ's kingdom had been preached for two millennia.
                    The OP stated that it was not a debate thread, and I want to respect her wishes.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by DeaconZ View Post
                      The OP stated that it was not a debate thread, and I want to respect her wishes.
                      Thank you, I appreciate that. I am finished with what I needed so y'all can do whatever y'all like now. I do really appreciate the courtesy!

                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                      My Personal Blog

                      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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