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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #61
    Originally posted by seanD View Post

    No answer, duly noted.
    Did you know the world ends 7 times in Revelation without ever leaving room for a Millennium?

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Dave L View Post

      Did you know the world ends 7 times in Revelation without ever leaving room for a Millennium?
      Finally a positive claim that you can show evidence for. Mind doing so? Can you show us three different times the world ends in Revelation?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Darfius View Post

        Finally a positive claim that you can show evidence for. Mind doing so? Can you show us three different times the world ends in Revelation?
        Think about what Jesus said about the wheat and tares in Mat 13.

        39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
        40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

        He didn't mention a thousand years. Neither did Daniel in chs. 2 or 7.
        The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

        https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Darfius View Post

          Finally a positive claim that you can show evidence for. Mind doing so? Can you show us three different times the world ends in Revelation?
          Try seeing it for yourself. It's there. You will understand more about Revelation than you ever will trying to debate.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by eschaton View Post

            Think about what Jesus said about the wheat and tares in Mat 13.

            39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
            40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

            He didn't mention a thousand years. Neither did Daniel in chs. 2 or 7.
            Scripture Verse: Revelation 14

            14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

            17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

            © Copyright Original Source



            The Bible in general and Revelation in this instance uses word connections to relate ideas and events to one another as an aid to objective interpretation rather than private interpretation. Said another way, the Bible interprets the Bible. The harvest Jesus spoke of is described here in Revelation between other events in a strict chronology. And a physical description of the amount of the blood of Jesus' enemies is given, a pointless addition if it is mere symbolism. In fact it is clearly given to anchor the description in the physical.

            Daniel and Jesus didn't mention the 1,000 years because it wasn't relevant to their message, which was in the context of the plans of the enemy and judgment, not God's planned rest for His remnant people, which the Millenium is. But Daniel and Jesus both mentioned that "the kingdom would be handed over to the saints". Which kingdom? The physical kingdoms of this world currently controlled by the enemy. Not some pie in the sky kingdom or metaphorical kingdom. And Jesus also gave a specific time marker in Daniel..."when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet." And this will be objectively seen and known, not speculatively suggested and unimportant, since the very survival of His people will depend on the knowledge of what He is saying.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Dave L View Post

              Try seeing it for yourself. It's there. You will understand more about Revelation than you ever will trying to debate.
              As usual a nonanswer from you. Clearly you are a waste of time and presumably of space. At least the rich young man was offered the chance of perfection by Jesus before he went away disobedient and therefore sad. You would never have even thought to approach the Master because He was busy changing the physical world and not the "spiritual" world of your own vain imaginings. Enjoy muttering to yourself in the corner.

              Oh, and for when you feigned ignorance about this being a debate site:

              About Us

              TheologyWeb was founded in January 2003 as the personal hobby of Dee Dee Warren, yxboom, and their cohort cirisme (who have since moved on to other endeavors). The site is maintained and owned by Sparko, Raphael, One Bad Pig, and mossrose with a group of volunteers. TheologyWeb does not exist to make a profit or promote a particular denomination or secondary view within Christianity, nor is it under the purview of any denomination or church. We firmly believe that Christianity can hold its own in the marketplace of ideas, and so welcome and encourage interaction [debate] with other points of view. Our leadership and technical teams, consisting of laypersons and leaders within various churches and those of other or no religious affiliations, hold each other in mutual accountability for the decisions of the site, whose decisions are final. With that said, Sparko's looking for dissenting volunteers to walk the plank. The owners and moderating staff are all Christians holding to TheologyWeb's Statement of Faith. Other volunteers assisting in technical administration and other areas may be atheists, agnostics, or those of other faiths. In 2013, the site suffered a catastrophic hard drive crash and we lost of all our data, so we had to start fresh at that time (we blame Jaltus). So let's party like it's 2003!


              Theologyweb is a privately-owned website. All members are here as our guests. We reserve the right to ban or limit any member's participation on our site at any time, for any reason. We realize that many of below rules are highly subjective in nature and will fall within the judgment of the moderators. All references to user-submitted content refer to posts, private messages, shouts, grades, forum-generated emails, or any other such medium, which utilizes the forum software. A violation of these rules will result in a warning, suspension, and/or removal from this site, and there may be rare instances where it is the sole discretion of the Owners that a member be moderated, removed, or denied access outside of any of the listed forum decorum rules.

              We do reserve denial of access and banishment for rare cases. Any forum area may expand or restrict these general rules as well as restrict participation to certain viewpoints, so we ask that members read the [READ ME] Topics and Guidelines in each forum area before participating. If you see a violation of these rules, the proper procedure is to hit the Report Post in the Post options menu, at which time a moderator will review and take action if appropriate. Let us keep the forum pro-active to these values of making this forum family-oriented and a pleasurable experience for all those involved.

              Additionally, we have a forum policy that forum leadership, when they are involved actively in a debate, are just as any other member. There are no repercussions for actions towards them in that capacity that there would not be towards any other members. One should not take their personal opinions on issues outside of our Statement of Faith to be positions of the site as a whole nor should their staff position itself be a debate point in areas other than the Padded Room. This serves to give our staff the freedom to be themselves in debate, and the members the freedom to disagree without fear of offending someone's "position." When a staff member is acting as such, it will be made clear and will not be part of a debate.

              Thanks, Your TheologyWeb Overlords! :)


              Idiot.
              Last edited by Darfius; 10-31-2020, 01:04 PM.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                As usual a nonanswer from you. Clearly you are a waste of time and presumably of space. At least the rich young man was offered the chance of perfection by Jesus before he went away disobedient and therefore sad. You would never have even have thought to approach the Master because He was busy changing the physical world and not the "spiritual" world of your own vain imaginings. Enjoy muttering to yourself in the corner.

                Oh, and for when you feigned ignorance about this being a debate site:

                About Us

                TheologyWeb was founded in January 2003 as the personal hobby of Dee Dee Warren, yxboom, and their cohort cirisme (who have since moved on to other endeavors). The site is maintained and owned by Sparko, Raphael, One Bad Pig, and mossrose with a group of volunteers. TheologyWeb does not exist to make a profit or promote a particular denomination or secondary view within Christianity, nor is it under the purview of any denomination or church. We firmly believe that Christianity can hold its own in the marketplace of ideas, and so welcome and encourage interaction [debate] with other points of view. Our leadership and technical teams, consisting of laypersons and leaders within various churches and those of other or no religious affiliations, hold each other in mutual accountability for the decisions of the site, whose decisions are final. With that said, Sparko's looking for dissenting volunteers to walk the plank. The owners and moderating staff are all Christians holding to TheologyWeb's Statement of Faith. Other volunteers assisting in technical administration and other areas may be atheists, agnostics, or those of other faiths. In 2013, the site suffered a catastrophic hard drive crash and we lost of all our data, so we had to start fresh at that time (we blame Jaltus). So let's party like it's 2003!


                Theologyweb is a privately-owned website. All members are here as our guests. We reserve the right to ban or limit any member's participation on our site at any time, for any reason. We realize that many of below rules are highly subjective in nature and will fall within the judgment of the moderators. All references to user-submitted content refer to posts, private messages, shouts, grades, forum-generated emails, or any other such medium, which utilizes the forum software. A violation of these rules will result in a warning, suspension, and/or removal from this site, and there may be rare instances where it is the sole discretion of the Owners that a member be moderated, removed, or denied access outside of any of the listed forum decorum rules.

                We do reserve denial of access and banishment for rare cases. Any forum area may expand or restrict these general rules as well as restrict participation to certain viewpoints, so we ask that members read the [READ ME] Topics and Guidelines in each forum area before participating. If you see a violation of these rules, the proper procedure is to hit the Report Post in the Post options menu, at which time a moderator will review and take action if appropriate. Let us keep the forum pro-active to these values of making this forum family-oriented and a pleasurable experience for all those involved.

                Additionally, we have a forum policy that forum leadership, when they are involved actively in a debate, are just as any other member. There are no repercussions for actions towards them in that capacity that there would not be towards any other members. One should not take their personal opinions on issues outside of our Statement of Faith to be positions of the site as a whole nor should their staff position itself be a debate point in areas other than the Padded Room. This serves to give our staff the freedom to be themselves in debate, and the members the freedom to disagree without fear of offending someone's "position." When a staff member is acting as such, it will be made clear and will not be part of a debate.

                Thanks, Your TheologyWeb Overlords! :)


                Idiot.
                Your insult speaks volumes. Why aren't you banned?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Dave L View Post

                  Your insult speaks volumes. Why aren't you banned?
                  Did I really insult you? Are you sure? Keep studying...

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                    Did I really insult you? Are you sure? Keep studying...
                    insults tell me a person is running low on thought. :)

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                      [verse=Revelation 14]14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
                      Eusebius believed that Nepos gave a private interpretation when he spoke of the millennium as an earthly kingdom. So what a private interpretation is often isn't recognized. Did Jesus mislead un about the millennium? If the thousand years is only found one place in the Bible then He did. I don't believe He did. At the end of the Olivet discourse He said:

                      Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

                      Jesus told the disciples he had foretold all things at the end of His discourse. There is no literal 1000 year earthly kingdom. I take Jesus at His word when He says all.
                      The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                      https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by eschaton View Post

                        Eusebius believed that Nepos gave a private interpretation when he spoke of the millennium as an earthly kingdom. So what a private interpretation is often isn't recognized. Did Jesus mislead un about the millennium? If the thousand years is only found one place in the Bible then He did. I don't believe He did. At the end of the Olivet discourse He said:

                        Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

                        Jesus told the disciples he had foretold all things at the end of His discourse. There is no literal 1000 year earthly kingdom. I take Jesus at His word when He says all.
                        You keep talking about these dudes as if their opinions are supposed to matter to anyone. They're not and they don't.

                        Scripture Verse: Mark 13

                        26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        Do you take Jesus at His word when He says His elect will be gathered from everywhere on earth? Gathered where? To His millenial kingdom, obviously. No, you don't take Him at His word.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                          You keep talking about these dudes as if their opinions are supposed to matter to anyone. They're not and they don't.

                          Scripture Verse: Mark 13

                          26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Do you take Jesus at His word when He says His elect will be gathered from everywhere on earth? Gathered where? To His millennial kingdom, obviously. No, you don't take Him at His word.
                          I take it that Jesus has foretold everything. That's because Jesus teaches in parables. That's how He taught the masses (Matthew 13:34). That's your answer. I would like an answer. You believe Revelation is a literal description. It says Jesus is a lamb with seven horns and eyes. Are they literal horns and eyes or only spirits? Why are they said to be both?
                          The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                          https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by eschaton View Post

                            I take it that Jesus has foretold everything. That's because Jesus teaches in parables. That's how He taught the masses (Matthew 13:34). That's your answer. I would like an answer. You believe Revelation is a literal description. It says Jesus is a lamb with seven horns and eyes. Are they literal horns and eyes or only spirits? Why are they said to be both?
                            When did I say the underlined? In fact, I've corrected you on this several times now. When Paul quotes the Old Testament's "do not muzzle the ox" to explain how the worker is worthy of his hire, he is using both the literal and the metaphorical to make his point.

                            Jesus is not physically a lamb, but who among us knows exactly how the spiritual works? He could literally be a lamb in the spiritual dimension just as the cherubim are oxen, lions and bulls. As for the horns and eyes, I encourage you to do as I've already suggested and allow the Bible to interpret the Bible.

                            Scripture Verse: Zechariah 3

                            8 “‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

                            © Copyright Original Source

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Darfius View Post

                              When did I say the underlined? In fact, I've corrected you on this several times now. When Paul quotes the Old Testament's "do not muzzle the ox" to explain how the worker is worthy of his hire, he is using both the literal and the metaphorical to make his point.

                              Jesus is not physically a lamb, but who among us knows exactly how the spiritual works? He could literally be a lamb in the spiritual dimension just as the cherubim are oxen, lions and bulls. As for the horns and eyes, I encourage you to do as I've already suggested and allow the Bible to interpret the Bible.

                              Scripture Verse: Zechariah 3

                              8 “‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. 9 See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              Good point. You confuse me though. You insisted that Jesus would be on a literal horse with a literal sword in His mouth, fighting the end time armies of the earth. That seems like extreme literalism to me. Am I thinking of someone else?
                              The Capitol Insurrection And Religion

                              https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...t_bibl_vppi_i0

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by eschaton View Post

                                Good point. You confuse me though. You insisted that Jesus would be on a literal horse with a literal sword in His mouth, fighting the end time armies of the earth. That seems like extreme literalism to me. Am I thinking of someone else?
                                Originally posted by Darfius ([URL
                                https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum/systematic-theology/eschatology-201/18555-binding-of-satan/page3#post1197188[/URL])] Jesus will have a literal sword and the sword of the Spirit. Both. Try understanding the latter without neglecting the former, as He told the Pharisees.
                                Where did I say the literal sword would be in His mouth?

                                Comment

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