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Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
    The specific language that John is writing in.
    The Bible was never written to us...it was specifically written to the people who rec'd it. The first rule of proper exegesis of any scripture is to recognize...it's not written to us. Proper exegesis would start there and realize that John was talking about a specific group of people who had left this particular church and (was probably, but not necessarily) indicative of churches around Asia at the time. It was a spirit that was prevalent at that time. That doesn't mean we can't learn from and use Scripture and be obedient to it's precepts...
    OK. Who did John write to? Is it God's word? Is 1 John 2:18 no longer true?
    ". . . that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every [word] that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live." -- Deuteronomy 8:3 was written to the people of Israel. see Matthew 4:4.


    Well... you almost have to in order to remain a futurist... do you have a basis for that rendering? I couldn't find a single version that renders it this way.
    "A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John, . . ." -- Revelation 1:1, Young's Literal Translation.
    Compare Luke 18:8, "I say to you, that He will execute the justice to them quickly; . . ."

    Also, how do you render Rev 1:3 and 1:7...was the time not near?
    Same as 1 Peter 4:7, ". . . But the end of all things is at hand: . . ." What was true as Peter wrote that is true today.

    How do the ones who pierced Him see him?
    Jesus' second coming (per: Acts 1:11) will be sudden like lightning (Matthew 24:27). And everyone will see His return both living and [the not yet resurrected] dead. How else would it be?
    Last edited by 37818; 07-07-2015, 12:00 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
      ... I am trying to get my hands on The Didache A Commentary by Kurt Niederwimmer so I can perhaps be either persuaded more or dissuaded a bit.
      Ah! Helen Brown at Accordance Oak Tree Software tells me that I have Kurt Niederwimmer's commentary on the Didache in my computer!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        I did not mention "antichrist". I mentioned the "world deceiver" of the Didache, who the writer equates with Paul's "man of sin" and Jesus' "abomination that causes desolation."
        According to The Didache A Commentary, by Kurt Niederwimmer, the world deceiver is the Antichrist:
        4b-d This new phase in the apocalyptic drama is introduced by καὶ τότε (“at that time”). The text presupposes the epiphany of the Antichrist,1 who will blind people with signs and wonders (v. 4b; cf. Mark 13:22/Matt 24:24).2 The Antichrist here bears the name κοσμοπλανής,3 that is, the one who “leads the world astray,” deceives it, betrays it: the great betrayer of the world.4 His betrayal consists in his appearance in the form of a son of God: φανήσεται ὡς υἱὸς θεοῦ.5 The diabolical, deceptive masquerade of God’s adversary is one of the typical events of the end time.6 The next motif also stems from that field: the Antichrist deceives and seduces people by the signs and wonders he performs.7 Closest to this Didache passage is Apoc. Pet. 2 (Ethiopic): “that this is the deceiver who must come into the world and do signs and wonders in order to deceive.”8 The world deceiver becomes the world ruler: καὶ ἡ γῆ παραδοθήσεται εἰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ (v. 4c).9 That is, the whole inhabited world10 is subjected to his seduction and will be handed over to him as a demonic imperator mundi.11 In v. 4d, finally, the demonic world ruler commits wicked deeds, ἀθέμιτα,12 such as have not occurred since the beginning of the world: ἃ οὐδέποτε γέγονεν ἐξ αἰῶνος. Behind the whole expression may be a recollection of Dan 12:1, but we should note that θλῖψις (as in the Synoptic apocalypse in [Didache p. 220] Mark 13:19/Matt 24:21) is replaced in the Didache by ἀθέμιτα.13 It is uncertain whether our apocalypticist refers to persecution of Christians when he writes ἀθέμιτα,14 but the continuation suggests that this is the case.15

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        • #34
          Moderated By: bill the cat

          Sylvius, please stop postung in this thread. It is not for your goofy numerology.

          ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
          Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          Stephen R. Donaldson

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          • #35
            I belatedly see a number of errors in my posts above, but the discussion seems to have been put on pause, so I will respect that.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              Moderated By: bill the cat

              Sylvius, please stop posting in this thread. It is not for your goofy numerology.

              ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
              Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

              It's not just the numerology that is goofy; it's more the cabala, which has not ceased following the warning.

              Bill said "Sylvius, please stop posting in this thread." Sylvius continues to post in this thread; maybe he thinks Bill has no authority to tell him to stop...

              Comment


              • #37
                I haven't waded through the whole thread, and I haven't been to this site in years I think (in fact I had to recreate my account, used to be zguy28), but to the OP, what makes you think Matthew 10:23 refers to anything than the time Jesus sent out his disciples to preach? The word translated "come"? It 's NOT parousia. Its erchomai. To use it to prooftext Jesus' return is incorrect.

                It carries the idea of physical transportation, or common movement.
                http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexic.../erchomai.html

                Here is parousia, which carries the idea of "presence" of somebody in person.

                http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexic.../parousia.html

                Here is an excerpt from a sermon I preached just 2 weeks ago on Matthew 24.

                We can speculate until we are blue in the face, but I recommend we just take the Scripture for what it says and don’t make assumptions or seek to fit it neatly into our presupposed ideas. I admit I have my own thoughts and presuppositions on how it all will happen. But in preparing this message, I really sought to put that aside and just look at what Jesus is saying and see what light the gospel shines on it. In particular, a lot of discussion centers around two Greek words used in this passage: Parousia and erchomai (erk-hom-eye). They both are translated as “coming”. So we need to know what the difference is. Erchomai is used in the NT in many places in reference to moving from place to place. Mark 15 uses it in the phrase “a passer-by coming from the country” and John uses it for things like Nathanael coming to Jesus to talk or Christ coming down from heaven to become a man. Parousia on the other hand does not refer to these things. It carries the weight of presence; particularly the presence of Almighty God in this passage. Several times its even used by Paul in his Corinthian letters in reference to his own presence physically with them. So, this is key in understanding Jesus’ answer. So remember these words: erchomai (erk-hom-eye) and Parousia.
                When you look at Matthew 24 and Jesus' teaching, you see that it goes:

                Signs signalling the end of Jerusalem (vv. 4-28)
                Actual destruction of the Jerusalem and temple and going out of the gospel (vv. 29-34 / erchomai used in reference to Daniel 7's son of man "coming" etc.)
                Transitional saying (v. 35)
                The return of Jesus Christ and wicked taken away to judgment (v.36ff / using parousia; cf. 1 Peter 2's "day of visitation").

                Now 1 Corinthians 15 does say believers will be "caught up" at his parousia, not his erchomai. His erchomai clearly has to do with exaltation (see Matthew 28 and "all authority" and the Great Commission) and also "tribulation of those days". "Those days" refers to Jerusalem, "that day or hour" is the parousia. So at parousia, Jesus says wicked taken away to judgment. Paul says Christians caught up to meet the Lord Jesus returning. Both at parousia.
                Last edited by DeaconZ; 08-06-2015, 05:33 PM.

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                • #38
                  Matthew 10:23 is referring to that tribulation. See Matthew 24:21. As for Jesus coming see Acts 1:11.
                  Last edited by 37818; 08-07-2015, 03:14 PM.
                  . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by seanD View Post
                    I believe they were inspired and that their statements were true and accurate based on Ps 90:4. How were they to know the Lord, other than the Lord himself, wouldn't come for 2,000+ finite years?
                    Didnt Jesus say that He didnt even know when He would return

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by At the door View Post
                      Didnt Jesus say that He didnt even know when He would return


                      Matthew 24:33-36 (KJV)
                      33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
                      34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
                      35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
                      36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by At the door View Post
                        Didnt Jesus say that He didnt even know when He would return
                        Jesus specifically said day and hour (I would also add year to that), but indicated we'd know the generation, and even instructed us to know this information.

                        The post you quoted was in reference to why the apostles thought his return was in their generation. If futurism is true, preterists imply that the apostles were wrong, thus not inspired, which they believe is a problem for a futurist interpretation. First of all, just because they were wrong, to me, is not indication they weren't inspired. That isn't how the Holy Spirit works in man. The Holy Spirit doesn't correct man's flaws, but works with their flaws. However, based on Ps 90:4, which Peter also cited in reference to the Lord's coming, they were in a divine sense NOT wrong. In the natural world they believed his return was imminent, which was also true in the eternal world based on that verse.
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by seanD View Post
                          Jesus specifically said day and hour (I would also add year to that), but indicated we'd know the generation, and even instructed us to know this information.

                          The post you quoted was in reference to why the apostles thought his return was in their generation. If futurism is true, preterists imply that the apostles were wrong, thus not inspired, which they believe is a problem for a futurist interpretation. First of all, just because they were wrong, to me, is not indication they weren't inspired. That isn't how the Holy Spirit works in man. The Holy Spirit doesn't correct man's flaws, but works with their flaws. However, based on Ps 90:4, which Peter also cited in reference to the Lord's coming, they were in a divine sense NOT wrong. In the natural world they believed his return was imminent, which was also true in the eternal world based on that verse.
                          So to you, inspired means...mostly ​what they wrote is right...but, some of it could be wrong? Hopefully that sounded better in your head...
                          "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                          "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                            So to you, inspired means...mostly ​what they wrote is right...but, some of it could be wrong? Hopefully that sounded better in your head...
                            No. It was inspired because it WAS right, as I just explained like twice now.
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                            Comment

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