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Post-trib futurist view.

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  • Post-trib futurist view.

    Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
    I would like an explanation of what a post-tribulation futurist is. I think I understand the "post Tribulation" part, but not the whole thing.
    Basically the post trib futurist view holds that the "rapture" takes place after the "tribulation"[persecution] takes place.

    The persecution: ". . . when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." -- Matthew 10:23.

    ". . . For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. . . ." -- Matthew 24:21-22.

    ". . . Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: . . ." -- Matthew 24:29-30.

    As a fulfillment of:
    ". . . this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. . . ." -- Acts 1:11.

    ". . . And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. . . ." -- Matthew 24:31.

    ". . . them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. . . . For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up[raptured] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: . . . " -- 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 16-17.

    ". . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 15:52.

    And that is just a quick overview.
    Last edited by 37818; 07-03-2015, 02:38 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

  • #2
    Correct.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Basically the post trib futurist view holds that the "rapture" takes place after the "tribulation"[persecution] takes place.

      The persecution: ". . . when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." -- Matthew 10:23.

      ". . . For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. . . ." -- Matthew 24:21-22.

      ". . . Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: . . ." -- Matthew 24:29-30.

      As a fulfillment of:
      ". . . this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. . . ." -- Acts 1:11.

      ". . . And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. . . ." -- Matthew 24:31.

      ". . . them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. . . . For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up[raptured] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: . . . " -- 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 16-17.

      ". . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 15:52.

      And that is just a quick overview.
      However correct that may be as a presentation of "the post trib futurist view", to my mind it demonstrates an exegetical fallacy: starting with a doctrine, and then taking isolated verses out of their respective contexts and stringing them together so as to fit the doctrine.

      In Exegetical Fallacies, D. A. Carson ― under his subheading "Unwarranted associative jumps" ― cites "the old adage that a text without a context becomes a pretext for a prooftext."

      Comment


      • #4
        I used to be Post-trib Futurist. (Of the Futurist views, it's the only one that makes sense IMHO)

        That is until I became convinced that the Tribulation had already happened and became a Orthodox Preterist...
        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by John Reece View Post
          However correct that may be as a presentation of "the post trib futurist view", to my mind it demonstrates an exegetical fallacy: starting with a doctrine, and then taking isolated verses out of their respective contexts and stringing them together so as to fit the doctrine.

          In Exegetical Fallacies, D. A. Carson ― under his subheading "Unwarranted associative jumps" ― cites "the old adage that a text without a context becomes a pretext for a prooftext."
          John, respectfully merely quoting from a context a portion of the text which supports an interpretation does not in of itself constitute out of context being contrary or adverse to the contexts. The philosophy being "never quote a Bible verse." Yet this is most always done.

          If you would be so kind to note, I used the ellipsis (. . .) to indicate there is a missing piece of text. That each citation has a larger context to be considered.

          Now if you have a problem as to how I used any of those quotes. Please, let's deal with each one of them. The what and why.
          . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
            I used to be Post-trib Futurist. (Of the Futurist views, it's the only one that makes sense IMHO)

            That is until I became convinced that the Tribulation had already happened and became a Orthodox Preterist...
            What, specifically, convinced you that the tribulation (Mark 13:24) had already taken place?
            . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              John, respectfully merely quoting from a context a portion of the text which supports an interpretation does not in of itself constitute out of context being contrary or adverse to the contexts. The philosophy being "never quote a Bible verse." Yet this is most always done.
              No, there is no philosophy of "never quote a Bible verse" in my response. The point is, don't quote a string of Bible verses in support of a doctrine that is antithetical to the meanings in the contexts of at least some of the verses cited in the string. Of course, people will differ in their interpretation of respective verses, and the ones that you listed may satisfy you as being each and all supportive of the doctrine you hold. I would simply note that the best (YMMV) exegetical scholars differ from your opinion in this regard. For instance, the editors of The New International Greek Testament Commentary (NIGTC) picked R. T. France to write the commentary on Mark, knowing that France presents a preterist perspective. Likewise the editors of The New International Commentary on the New Testament (NICNT) picked France to write the commentary on Matthew in that series, knowing full well that France presents a preterist perspective. Likewise the editors of both the original and the updated versions of Matthew in Tyndale New Testament Commentaries (TNTC) picked preterist exegetes to write the respective commentaries on Matthew, R. T. France being the latter.

              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              ]If you would be so kind to note, I used the ellipsis (. . .) to indicate there is a missing piece of text. That each citation has a larger context to be considered.
              A missing piece of text is not really the issue here.

              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Now if you have a problem as to how I used any of those quotes. Please, let's deal with each one of them. The what and why.
              You have indicated above that you have begun reading Dee Dee Warren's exegetical book, which deals with some of the texts you cited (Matthew 24:21-22; 29-30, 31) in support of a post-tribulation futurist exegesis. I see no need for me to expended my precious little bit of energy duplicating arguments that doubtless you will find in Dee Dee's book with regard to the references to Matthew, which are sufficient to establish my point in principle.
              Last edited by John Reece; 07-04-2015, 02:51 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                . . .The philosophy being "never quote a Bible verse." Yet this is most always done. . . .
                I misstated the philosophy I was referring to. More fully it is "Never Read a Bible Verse Explore More Content."
                . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  What, specifically, convinced you that the tribulation (Mark 13:24) had already taken place?
                  Well, it was a long slow process of study and prayer. Specifically it was the preponderance of evidence, not just one specific thing. It started with Hank Hanegraaff's Book "The Apocalypse Code" . This book got me to thinking about and reading up on the whole genre of Preterist end times prophecy. Then, I read a book from Dee Dee's website (the website no longer exists) but it was an old book that detailed all the atrocities of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. I think the pieces just all fell into place. Then the verses in 1 John and Revelation make more sense:

                  1 John 2:18 - "Little children, it is the last time*: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time*..."
                  *King James in in a minority here with "Last Time", most translations say "Last Hour".

                  Rev 1:1 - "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;..."
                  Rev 1:3 - "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand..."

                  Paul Says in 2 Thessalonians: 2 Thess 2:1,2 - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
                  2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand...."

                  James said: 5:7,8 - "7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh..."

                  Peter said: 1 Peter 4:6,7 - "6 For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer..."

                  When you take all these into consideration with the Olivet discourse, it seems odd to think all these Apostles got the timing that wrong.
                  Last edited by Littlejoe; 07-04-2015, 04:05 PM.
                  "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                  "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                    Then the verses in 1 John and Revelation make more sense:

                    1 John 2:18 - "Little children, it is the last time*: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time*..."
                    *King James in in a minority here with "Last Time", most translations say "Last Hour".

                    Rev 1:1 - "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;..."
                    Rev 1:3 - "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand..."

                    Paul Says in 2 Thessalonians: 2 Thess 2:1,2 - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
                    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand...."

                    James said: 5:7,8 - "7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh..."

                    Peter said: 1 Peter 4:6,7 - "6 For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 7But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer..."

                    When you take all these into consideration with the Olivet discourse, it seems odd to think all these Apostles got the timing that wrong.
                    2 Peter 3:8 - "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day"
                    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seanD View Post
                      2 Peter 3:8 - "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day"
                      Yes the Lord is patient, which is why the final judgment hasn't happened yet.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        2 Peter 3:8 - "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day"
                        Context is everything as I know you believe as well. In context then, Peter is first of all, quoting from Ps 90, which gives us a little more context. The Psalmist contrasts God's "life" with those of Adam...who lived 930 years! So like Adam, we are finite... while God is infinite. So, in Ps 90, the 1000 yrs seems to symbolize the wholeness, completeness, and fullness that only comes via God. Also, in context, Paul has already written them a letter as well, (vs 14 - 18 specifically 15) (could this be Thessalonica?) similar to Peter's. Why is Peter writing them a second letter? Because there are mockers saying to them...where is your God? Jesus said he was returning, where is he? Those "Apostles" have been preaching his return for years now....where is he? Peter goes on to explain that God ALWAYS honors His promises...even if it's not in the timing that YOU think it should be. Notice the qualifier to your verse now in vs. 9...

                        "9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

                        Then notice in vs 13 and 14, Peter doesn't say that it's not coming soon, he says God will fulfill His Promise and that they need to KEEP looking for it (vs14).
                        So, I don't think that 2 Peter 3:8 is the death nail you may want to believe it is. At least from the Preterist Hermeneutic perspective.
                        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                          Context is everything as I know you believe as well. In context then, Peter is first of all, quoting from Ps 90, which gives us a little more context. The Psalmist contrasts God's "life" with those of Adam...who lived 930 years! So like Adam, we are finite... while God is infinite. So, in Ps 90, the 1000 yrs seems to symbolize the wholeness, completeness, and fullness that only comes via God. Also, in context, Paul has already written them a letter as well, (vs 14 - 18 specifically 15) (could this be Thessalonica?) similar to Peter's. Why is Peter writing them a second letter? Because there are mockers saying to them...where is your God? Jesus said he was returning, where is he? Those "Apostles" have been preaching his return for years now....where is he? Peter goes on to explain that God ALWAYS honors His promises...even if it's not in the timing that YOU think it should be. Notice the qualifier to your verse now in vs. 9...

                          "9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

                          Then notice in vs 13 and 14, Peter doesn't say that it's not coming soon, he says God will fulfill His Promise and that they need to KEEP looking for it (vs14).
                          So, I don't think that 2 Peter 3:8 is the death nail you may want to believe it is. At least from the Preterist Hermeneutic perspective.
                          I didn't quote it as a "death nail" towards preterism; I quoted it to debunk what seems to be a death nail towards futurism. Those verses you quoted was what I used to perceive as a strong argument against futurism because it supposes the apostles were wrong, thus not inspired. To the contrary, even if the apostles were anticipating the imminent return of the Lord in their time, this still could have been inspired from the Lord's perspective because it was still true and accurate based on Ps 90:4.
                          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            I didn't quote it as a "death nail" towards preterism; I quoted it to debunk what seems to be a death nail towards futurism. Those verses you quoted was what I used to perceive as a strong argument against futurism because it supposes the apostles were wrong, thus not inspired. To the contrary, even if the apostles were anticipating the imminent return of the Lord in their time, this still could have been inspired from the Lord's perspective because it was still true and accurate based on Ps 90:4.
                            Ah! So with that verse you dismiss the possibility that the Apostles were right and inspired in their timing? It's not one of the options you opined as possible...
                            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                              Ah! So with that verse you dismiss the possibility that the Apostles were right and inspired in their timing? It's not one of the options you opined as possible...
                              I believe they were inspired and that their statements were true and accurate based on Ps 90:4. How were they to know the Lord, other than the Lord himself, wouldn't come for 2,000+ finite years?
                              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                              Comment

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