Announcement

Collapse

Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

System of the Beast makes perfect sense today

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • System of the Beast makes perfect sense today

    I honestly don't see how a preterist can make a good argument against futurism and it's interpretation of Rev 13 in light of the direction our modern society is heading.

    The Beast is not only compatible with our technology but makes perfect sense in the 21st century. If society becomes completely cashless, not only will it be extremely practical (easily integrating in with our technological awareness which already revolves around digital transactions), but it will virtually cease crime, especially if a digital currency is coupled with a biometric identification.

    The problem is, other than the obvious theological one, is that the powers that be will have almost complete control over the populace. For example, say that you do everything with a credit card and have no cash on hand. If you piss off someone who has the power to shut off your credit card, then you're screwed. You might be able to seek legal action if you could find some way to pay, but in the meantime, you have no way to pay for your essentials -- i.e. food, fuel, mortgage/rent, etc.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  • #2
    System of the Beast makes perfect sense at any point in the history of the planet. That's the point.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by RBerman View Post
      System of the Beast makes perfect sense at any point in the history of the planet. That's the point.
      Well, yeah, if one argues that it's symbolic. Otherwise, it never historically occurred the way it's described in a literal sense. It's a rather huge coincidence, however, that it will happen in our modern society (the technology is already available and it's already happening like I explained) the way Rev describes it in a literal sense.
      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by RBerman View Post
        System of the Beast makes perfect sense at any point in the history of the planet. That's the point.
        This is true. We have better technology today, so does the fact that it would theoretically be easier to try to approximate the strange visions in Ezekiel demand a modern interpretation of every vision there? Are we going to argue that Jeremiah 1:11 must be an example of modern video technology? Let's not put God in our modern boxes.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          This is true. We have better technology today, so does the fact that it would theoretically be easier to try to approximate the strange visions in Ezekiel demand a modern interpretation of every vision there? Are we going to argue that Jeremiah 1:11 must be an example of modern video technology? Let's not put God in our modern boxes.
          Apples and oranges. Ezekiel's vision was an event happening in the present. John's was future. Though I haven't ruled out that a lot of John's strange visions were literal visions in the supernatural world, the Beast was interactive with worldly activities (i.e. people knew what the Beast was, he was part of the system of commerce, etc).
          Last edited by seanD; 02-05-2014, 04:24 PM.
          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            Apples and oranges. Ezekiel's vision was an event happening in the present. John's was future. Though I haven't ruled out that a lot of John's strange visions were literal visions in the supernatural world, the Breast was interactive with worldly activities (i.e. people buying and selling).

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
              ...
              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                ...
                Sorry, spelling errors tend to jump out at me. This one seemed especially odd.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                  Sorry, spelling errors tend to jump out at me. This one seemed especially odd.
                  Rofl. I think I hit the first spell check word that was offered without looking at the word. I do that sometimes.
                  "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    In fairness, I have seen the OP here presented as a formal apologetic argument (not just for futurism but for Christianity as a whole), and it was actually expanded beyond what was presented here. In addition to the arguments based on the technological implications seen in the mark of the beast account, Revelation 11:8-10 was presented as demonstrating that instantaneous worldwide communication and short-order worldwide shipping was possible in the vision.
                    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There's an almost obsessive drive among some preterists to identify the Beast only as the Roman Empire, when that's not what is really indicated in prophecy.

                      The Harlot of Babylon

                      To start, the Harlot of Babylon is stated plainly as Jerusalem here:

                      Ezekiel 23:4 And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.

                      Ezekiel 23:11 And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms.

                      Ezekiel 23:17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.
                      Comparisons:

                      Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

                      Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

                      Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

                      Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
                      The Beast

                      Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
                      If Jerusalem is the Harlot of Babylon, then we may see that Babylon is a Beast, and Jerusalem sits on 7 Heads of the Beast as an occupied territory. So we can go to Babylon for more answers.

                      Daniel 4:14 He cried aloud, and said thus, Hew down the tree, and cut off his branches, shake off his leaves, and scatter his fruit: let the beasts get away from under it, and the fowls from his branches:

                      Daniel 4:15 Nevertheless leave the stump of his roots in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts in the grass of the earth:

                      Daniel 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

                      Daniel 4:18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.
                      Here Nebuchadnezzar became a Beast cut down and remained 7 times in a band of iron and brass. As a greater prophecy of Babylon, it is chopped down by Persia, but remains a Beast 7 times in Greece and Rome, Kingdoms often identified here:

                      Daniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

                      Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

                      Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
                      Therefore the Beast with 7 Heads and 10 Horns may be identified as brass Greece and iron Rome, also seen here with brass nails and iron teeth:

                      Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

                      Daniel 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
                      Historically powers that occupied Jerusalem after Persia cut Babylon down:

                      Brass Greece

                      1. Alexander
                      2. Ptolemaic
                      3. Seleucid

                      Iron Rome

                      Here's where it can get fuzzy. One way to see it is:

                      4. Hasmonean/Roman
                      5. Herodian/Roman, the Antichrist sending Jesus to death.
                      6. Roman
                      7. Roman Crusaders
                      8. Jews like Herodians/Gentiles like Romans, another Antichrist against Jesus.

                      This kind of futurist interpretation could be seen as the 8th Head a restoration of Jews ruling Jerusalem along with a great Gentile power. Some may see it as modern Jerusalem along with the UN or USA, like a subtle False Messiah saving the world with democracy and from terrorism, not really as a Damien/Omen type character. Others may see it as Jews turning to Gentile secularism.

                      Me -- I'm not a prophet so I can't say for sure. Whatever it is, again, the common preterist idea that the Beast is all about the Roman Empire seems largely unfounded to me.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't know if I'm missing a really obvious detail, but the comparison between the Ezekiel passages and the passages referring to the Harlot seems rather tenuous to me. I don't see anything that would definitively tie the two together other than the use of harlotry as part of an extended metaphor.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          I don't know if I'm missing a really obvious detail, but the comparison between the Ezekiel passages and the passages referring to the Harlot seems rather tenuous to me. I don't see anything that would definitively tie the two together other than the use of harlotry as part of an extended metaphor.
                          Ezekiel is not so much as relating to Revelation, as it is clearly identifying unrighteous Jerusalem as the Harlot of Babylon, an adulteress with idolatry and sin vs. New Jerusalem and the righteous who are faithful. If the answer is right there in the Bible, why go looking for Catholics, Muslims, etc. as the Harlot in some mystical magical way that's not in the Bible? That and as one killing prophets identified by Jesus as relating to Revelation further supports this interpretation.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                            In fairness, I have seen the OP here presented as a formal apologetic argument (not just for futurism but for Christianity as a whole), and it was actually expanded beyond what was presented here. In addition to the arguments based on the technological implications seen in the mark of the beast account, Revelation 11:8-10 was presented as demonstrating that instantaneous worldwide communication and short-order worldwide shipping was possible in the vision.
                            I agree. Earthquakes in diverse places doesn't seem like a particularly unusual sign to a people that didn't have seismic technology and the means to communicate it worldwide. Or "all the tribes of the earth" seeing the return of the Lord all at once.
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post
                              I agree. Earthquakes in diverse places doesn't seem like a particularly unusual sign to a people that didn't have seismic technology and the means to communicate it worldwide. Or "all the tribes of the earth" seeing the return of the Lord all at once.
                              "All the tribes of the earth?" There does not appear to be any "all" in the original Greek, nor in the ESV translation:

                              Scripture Verse: Revelation 11:7-10

                              And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              The scene appears to be a cosmopolitan city, filled with representatives from all over the world. Like Rome in that day, or Jerusalem in Acts 2. Like NYC today. There have always been crossroad cities like that, and always will be. No need to appeal to TV for this verse to find application, even though we may think of how TV could fulfill this verse in our day. The point, within the logic of John's vision, is that the deaths of the witnesses were well-documented, not secret. Their lives, their deaths, their resurrections, and their ascension to heaven were all a witness to the world. (Sound familiar?)

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by eschaton, 10-23-2020, 06:17 PM
                              0 responses
                              11 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post eschaton  
                              Started by eschaton, 10-19-2020, 02:05 PM
                              0 responses
                              22 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post eschaton  
                              Started by KingsGambit, 07-29-2018, 07:36 PM
                              72 responses
                              13,078 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post eschaton  
                              Started by Darfius, 07-26-2015, 12:35 AM
                              29 responses
                              17,462 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post eschaton  
                              Started by hamster, 07-05-2015, 01:07 PM
                              46 responses
                              31,080 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Dave L
                              by Dave L
                               
                              Working...
                              X