Announcement

Collapse

Eschatology 201 Guidelines

This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Are you a splitter or a joiner?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Are you a splitter or a joiner?

    I would like to share this excellent teaching on prophecy and eschatology from Dr. Michael Heiser. What you think about the second coming and rapture is determined by decisions you make before you start comparing the scriptures.



    http://drmsh.com/
    666 And The Name

    http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

    https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

  • #2
    I got about 19 minutes in before I gave up. He built a false dichotomy by comparing the sign on the cross and their harmonization to harmonizing the scriptures regarding the future coming of Jesus. Starting 12 minutes in he seems to be teaching against a literal resurrection of the saints by saying that it's speaking of being caught up spiritually, and then he gets to 1 Corinthians 15 and makes no mention of the resurrection except in reading the Scripture and deriding a literal interpretation of 1 Thess. This isn't poetry where symbolism is expected nor is it a book of prophecy. Instead it is a letter explaining the end times (that is to say 1 Thess), and similar for 1 Corinthians except the subject matter is more broad. Nor are the various authors Matthew, John, or Paul necessarily speaking of the same "coming of man" as the man implied, they are different authors with different intentions. Matthew was recording Jesus and speaking to Jews. John was recording a vision of the end times for Christians. Paul was writing to churches.

    I split the resurrection of the saints from the general resurrection too. Because that's what I see in Scripture without the any presuppositions he's claiming I have except to let the authors speak for themselves. I am certainly not an expert on this subject but I get more annoyed at claiming I don't know what I'm doing than someone saying I'm doing it wrong which is what he kept implying about "splitters." I am sorry eschaton that I've gotten a little riled up, but Dr. Heiser came off as very condescending to me. I understand people read the Scriptures differently and that is perfectly acceptable within the bounds of orthodoxy but it wasn't even like reading the orthodox Preterists of this site.
    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

    Comment


    • #3
      You make a pretty good case for splitting. I'm a joiner though. I'll have to watch the video again, or look at some of his other works to see what he says about the resurrection. I don't think he rejects a bodily resurrection, but I'll check that. Most probably he believes in a spiritual and a bodily resurrection as does the traditional church.

      The main thing I would disagree with him on is he says the Bible doesn't come with a set of instructions on how to interpret it. I say it does. I would start with 2 Cor 3:6 and Prov 1:5-6 and support it with what the church fathers said about those verses. I would then turn to Rom 1:19-20, Psa 8:3, Luke 10:26 and similar verses.

      Thanks for your comments.
      666 And The Name

      http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

      https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

      Comment


      • #4
        I believe in a post tribe rapture. And I fall into a category of a "joiner." Yet according to his argument, "joiners" do not believe in the rapture. On just on this one point he is mistaken. . . .
        . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

        Comment


        • #5
          At 25 minutes into the video he briefly mentions the other views. If you are a joiner then I guess you consider the rapture and second coming as the same event? Personally, I think of premillennialism as a splitter. I consider myself amillennial.

          Notice the pre-trib chart early in the video. Isn't post-trib the same except for the placement of the rapture? It's appears to be splitting scriptures into areas of which some are not identified elsewhere in scripture. The "millennium" is separated from the rest of NT teaching, and then OT prophecies are applied to it. This is far from clear in the chiliasm of the early church. The church was considered the true people of God, and believing Jews were part of it.
          Last edited by eschaton; 12-24-2014, 05:59 PM.
          666 And The Name

          http://https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08D1M48M4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&qid=1594855398&refinements=p_2 7%3AAlan+Fuller&s=digital-text&sr=1-1&text=Alan+Fuller

          https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by eschaton View Post
            You make a pretty good case for splitting. I'm a joiner though. I'll have to watch the video again, or look at some of his other works to see what he says about the resurrection. I don't think he rejects a bodily resurrection, but I'll check that. Most probably he believes in a spiritual and a bodily resurrection as does the traditional church.
            Thank you for the compliment, I had not felt like I was making a very good case, just an overly peeved rant. Yes, he probably does hold to an orthodox view of the resurrection, but I certainly found it interesting he ignored it. He sounded very Reformed to me (which is not an insult.)

            The main thing I would disagree with him on is he says the Bible doesn't come with a set of instructions on how to interpret it. I say it does. I would start with 2 Cor 3:6 and Prov 1:5-6 and support it with what the church fathers said about those verses. I would then turn to Rom 1:19-20, Psa 8:3, Luke 10:26 and similar verses.
            I jokingly thought to myself that of course Bibles come with instructions on how to read them! They are called "commentaries" which I thought was clever. And while I am not certain if I agree with you, after looking up your proof-texts I would also add 2 Tim 2:15 to your list if you just want Scripture saying there is a "right" way to handle the Word.

            Thanks for your comments.
            It was no issue eschaton. Merry Christmas. Also, I want to clarify, I am not Pre-Trib, but the claims of "splitting" would apply similarly to me anyways because I am Mid-Trib, or perhaps Pre-Wrath.

            So far as Post-Trib goes it includes a belief in the Rapture but it happens at the same time as the second coming that immediately precedes the Millennial Reign. So it is both literal and joins AFAIK. I'm sure 37818 can correct me if that is a mistaken summary.
            Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

            Comment


            • #7
              I think most folks know by now that I'm a Panmillenialist.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by eschaton View Post
                At 25 minutes into the video he briefly mentions the other views. If you are a joiner then I guess you consider the rapture and second coming as the same event? Personally, I think of premillennialism as a splitter. I consider myself amillennial.

                Notice the pre-trib chart early in the video. Isn't post-trib the same except for the placement of the rapture? It's appears to be splitting scriptures into areas of which some are not identified elsewhere in scripture. The "millennium" is separated from the rest of NT teaching, and then OT prophecies are applied to it. This is far from clear in the chiliasm of the early church. The church was considered the true people of God, and believing Jews were part of it.
                Yes, I see the rapture at the second coming of Christ. And I am a premillemmialist. Pre-trib view holds to an imminent return of Christ. I holding a post-trib view, hold to a not now imminent, but a yet future sudden return of Christ. It will have been imminent when it happens.
                . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

                Comment

                Related Threads

                Collapse

                Topics Statistics Last Post
                Started by seanD, 03-26-2020, 12:05 PM
                44 responses
                4,935 views
                0 likes
                Last Post eschaton  
                Started by KingsGambit, 07-29-2018, 07:36 PM
                73 responses
                13,108 views
                0 likes
                Last Post eschaton  
                Started by hamster, 07-05-2015, 01:07 PM
                116 responses
                31,418 views
                0 likes
                Last Post ReformedApologist  
                Working...
                X