One taken, and the other left behind: alternate theories

[heartablaze]

So maybe I just wasn't reading too closely the other day or maybe it was my ESV Study Bible notes that I was reading too closely, but I came upon the alternate theory that the one taken was taken to judgment and the one left behind is spared instead of the more traditional view that they one whoa was left behind was doomed, and the one taken was raptured.

Has anyone else heard this theory? What do you think? For a reference, here are two parallel passages in the gospels about this instance.

“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all... “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. Remember Lot’s wife! Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” Luke 17:26-27,30-36(NIV)

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other... “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Matthew 24:30-31,36-41(NIV)

The Matthew passage seems more clear - it seems to be pointing to a "gathering of the elect from the four winds." But then why should the one on the roof not go down for his goods? What good will running do? Can someone explain to me why the gathering =disappearing.

[Paprika]

So maybe I just wasn't reading too closely the other day or maybe it was my ESV Study Bible notes that I was reading too closely, but I came upon the alternate theory that the one taken was taken to judgment and the one left behind is spared instead of the more traditional view that they one whoa was left behind was doomed, and the one taken was raptured.

Given that the rapture (and dispenstionalism) is a rather recent teaching, I think you've got the chronology reversed.

[JohnnyP]

Revelation implies that the elect are the 144k and martyred, sealed as the angels held back the 4 winds. I would identify the 2 Olive Tree witnesses of Jews and Gentiles as the same. A Rapture of sorts is clearly described, though not quite according to the "Left Behind" version:

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

And really, the following is about gathering from heaven not from out of the earth, suggesting the elect ascend to heaven and are gathered there as Revelation 11:12 describes:

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After that it seems those "disappearing" from the fields and so on may be the wicked carried away by the flood as in:

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Obsidian]

Where do you get the idea that the 144,000 were killed?

[JohnnyP]

Where do you get the idea that the 144,000 were killed?

I take them to be the 2 Olive Trees of Revelation 11 described as Jews and Gentiles in Romans 11, receiving white robes like those martyred before them, out of all nations, tongues, etc. Israelites both identifying as Jews, and others scattered to the nations identifying as Gentiles, all following Jesus.

It would also seem that the firstfruits become as such from martyrdom, then resurrection and ascend, following the lead of Jesus:

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

[heartablaze]

Given that the rapture (and dispenstionalism) is a rather recent teaching, I think you've got the chronology reversed.

Looks like Matthew Henry subscribed to the view of the rapture, if that's what safe place meant. He lived in the late 1600s and 1700s. What do you mean by rather recent?

v. 34-36. When God’s judgments are laying all waste, he will take an effectual course to preserve those that are his, by remarkable providences distinguishing between them and others that were nearest to them: two in a bed, one taken and the other left; one snatched out of the burning and taken into a place of safety, while the other is left to perish in the common ruin

Those of the same age, place, capacity, employment, and condition, in the world, grinding in the same mill, those of the same family, nay, those that were joined in the same bond of marriage, were, one effectually called, the other passed by, and left in the gall of bitterness. This is that division, that separating fire, which Christ came to send, Lu. 12:49, Lu. 12:51 . This renders free grace the more obliging, that it is distinguishing; to us, and not to the world (Jn. 14:22 ), nay to us, and not to those in the same field, the same mill, the same house.When ruin came upon Jerusalem, a distinction was made by Divine Providence, according to that which had been before made by divine grace; for all the Christians among them were saved from perishing in that calamity, by the special care of Heaven. If two were at work in the field together, and one of them was a Christian, he was taken into a place of shelter, and had his life given him for a prey, while the other was left to the sword of the enemy. Nay, if but two women were grinding at the mill, if one of them belonged to Christ, though but a woman, a poor woman, a servant, she was taken to a place of safety, and the other abandoned

John Wesley, from the same era, also believed that it was the righteous that were taken.

24:40 One is taken - Into God's immediate protection: and one is left - To share the common calamities. Our Lord speaks as having the whole transaction present before his eyes.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After that it seems those "disappearing" from the fields and so on may be the wicked carried away by the flood as in:

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Ok, so are you saying that it's both/and? There will be a gathering of believers and then a gathering of sinners as well? But that the latter is that which are represented in the fields?

[Paprika]

Looks like Matthew Henry subscribed to the view of the rapture, if that's what safe place meant. He lived in the late 1600s and 1700s. What do you mean by rather recent?

In the ~2000 years since the text was written, a rapture view of the text only emerged relatively recently.

[Jedidiah]

Evidence that newer concepts and understandings must be wrong is missing.

[Paprika]

Evidence that newer concepts and understandings must be wrong is missing.

Indeed, though where did I claim that new concepts and understandings must be wrong?

[JohnnyP]

Ok, so are you saying that it's both/and? There will be a gathering of believers and then a gathering of sinners as well? But that the latter is that which are represented in the fields?

It looks that way, although I don't know if there's a literal gathering of the wicked like a rapture kind of thing. Since it's compared to Noah's flood it would seem to take away the wicked:

For example:

Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

In my view:

The 2 women of Revelation are Virgin Jerusalem the Messianic Kingdom and Harlot Jerusalem the Beast Kingdom. The heads and waters she sits on are various Gentile Beast entities of Greece and Rome, powered by the dragon Satan.

So the flood of those Gentiles go after the woman, then the earth swallows the flood from them, which may refer to Christianity growing despite the flood. It would seem to be after Roman exile symbolized by eagles wings, see Ezekiel 17.

If Revelation refers to the same flood Jesus spoke of, perhaps wicked are carried away, the earth doesn't swallow the flood for them. I wouldn't say physically, but spiritually away from God, being assimilated by disbelief, secularism, idolatry, etc. of the Beast. So it may be that being "Left Behind" there doesn't mean physically left in a bed, field, etc. but left righteous and not carried away by wickedness.

I pretty much lean to that view but it hinges on seeing Noah's flood as carrying away the wicked, as tied in with the Revelation flood.

You could also read it as, Noah's flood also carried away the righteous in the Ark and left the wicked behind to drown. Gentiles of the Beast also carry Christians away to martyrdom, which ties in with gathering the elect out of the heavens. But like I said if it is supposed to compare with the Revelation flood, that flood never seems to touch the woman.

[heartablaze]

Indeed, though where did I claim that new concepts and understandings must be wrong?

So what is your view on the Matthew 24 and Luke 17 texts? Who is taken and who is left? Is that literal?

It looks that way, although I don't know if there's a literal gathering of the wicked like a rapture kind of thing. Since it's compared to Noah's flood it would seem to take away the wicked...
If Revelation refers to the same flood Jesus spoke of, perhaps wicked are carried away, the earth doesn't swallow the flood for them. I wouldn't say physically, but spiritually away from God, being assimilated by disbelief, secularism, idolatry, etc. of the Beast. So it may be that being "Left Behind" there doesn't mean physically left in a bed, field, etc. but left righteous and not carried away by wickedness.

I pretty much lean to that view but it hinges on seeing Noah's flood as carrying away the wicked, as tied in with the Revelation flood.

You could also read it as, Noah's flood also carried away the righteous in the Ark and left the wicked behind to drown. Gentiles of the Beast also carry Christians away to martyrdom, which ties in with gathering the elect out of the heavens. But like I said if it is supposed to compare with the Revelation flood, that flood never seems to touch the woman.

Honestly, Revelation is a very hard book for me, so conclusions drawn from it are taken with a grain of salt. Hm, we all know that in the end, there are those who go to heaven and hell. It could be a spiritual reality of separation as in the flood.

[Paprika]

So what is your view on the Matthew 24 and Luke 17 texts? Who is taken and who is left? Is that literal?

As the context obviously shows that those who are taken are destroyed, just as they were in the flood, the rapture interpretation is clearly wrong.

[37818]

So maybe I just wasn't reading too closely the other day or maybe it was my ESV Study Bible notes that I was reading too closely, but I came upon the alternate theory that the one taken was taken to judgment and the one left behind is spared instead of the more traditional view that they one whoa was left behind was doomed, and the one taken was raptured.

Has anyone else heard this theory? What do you think? For a reference, here are two parallel passages in the gospels about this instance.





The Matthew passage seems more clear - it seems to be pointing to a "gathering of the elect from the four winds." But then why should the one on the roof not go down for his goods? What good will running do? Can someone explain to me why the gathering =disappearing.

I understand the gathering of the elect to refer to the 'rapture.'
And those taken are take in judgement. I have held this view over 40 years.

[JohnnyP]

Honestly, Revelation is a very hard book for me, so conclusions drawn from it are taken with a grain of salt. Hm, we all know that in the end, there are those who go to heaven and hell. It could be a spiritual reality of separation as in the flood.

Could be. 1 Peter 3 also compares in that some are saved by water in the ark of baptism (salvation of Jesus), which would leave others "drowned by the flood" of "disbelief, secularism, idolatry, etc." or ultimately the Lake of Fire as you say. Might be layers/dual meanings to it.

[squint]

The essence, so to speak of the 'one taken' 'one left' statement of Jesus is expanded on by Paul in Romans 9 by example. Paul shows that in one lump of clay there are 2 vessels, one of honor and one of dishonor.

The math falls out relatively easy from there.

Paul again defines this to each of us in 2 Tim. 2:20-21 showing that we are to consider and quest to divide from the vessel of dishonor in order to be a vessel of honor. That is a division that is personal in nature to each believer, to divide from. A practical example would be to understand that the internal source of temptation is Satanic in nature and source. In understanding we are not LED by that impetus, but by turning away from same, purging ourselves from that source.