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This area of the forum is primarily for Christian theists to discuss orthodox views of Eschatology. Other theist participation is welcome within that framework, but only within orthodoxy. Posts from nontheists that do not promote atheism or seek to undermine the faith of others will be permitted at the Moderator's discretion - such posters should contact the area moderators before posting.


Without turning this forum into a 'hill of foreskins' (Joshua 5:3), I believe we can still have fun with this 'sensitive' topic.

However, don't be misled, dispensationalism has only partly to do with circumcision issues. So, let's not forget about Innocence, Conscience, Promises, Kingdoms and so on.

End time -isms within orthodox Christianity also discussed here. Clearly unorthodox doctrines, such as those advocating "pantelism/full preterism/Neo-Hymenaeanism" or the denial of any essential of the historic Christian faith are not permitted in this section but can be discussed in Comparative Religions 101 without restriction. Any such threads, as well as any that within the moderator's discretions fall outside mainstream evangelical belief, will be moved to the appropriate area.

Millennialism- post-, pre- a-

Futurism, Historicism, Idealism, and Preterism, or just your garden variety Zionism.

From the tribulation to the anichrist. Whether your tastes run from Gary DeMar to Tim LaHaye or anywhere in between, your input is welcome here.

OK folks, let's roll!

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According to preterism there is no devil [in the world today].

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
    The part where you implied that it is just the devil that causes sin, and that man would be good little boys if he were to disappear today.
    ". . . For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. . . ." This would no longer be the case if the Devil is locked up would it? Or is it just the Devil's cohorts we call demons still at play in this.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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    • #32
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      ". . . For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. . . ." This would no longer be the case if the Devil is locked up would it? Or is it just the Devil's cohorts we call demons still at play in this.
      Good thing I don't believe the devil is literally locked up.

      And of course demons are in play unless you are conceited enough to think you warrant the devil's personal attention. He isn't omnipresent.
      The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
        That Satan tempts us to sin isn't a free ride to say "devil made me do it" to avoid responsibility, it's a call to ask Jesus to fight Satan for us, and to forgive us if we fail. If in God's plans it isn't in the cards and He chooses not to have us turn to Him, as He hardened Pharaoh's heart, then we won't turn to Him in the first place. This doesn't indicate Pelagianism which seems to imply that we can always choose God out of free will no matter what, and we know from Pharaoh's example that's not the case, God has to allow it.

        Pelagianism in part also denies that sin entered the world through Adam, and that we don't need God to avoid sin, where I claim the opposite. What the Bible does imply is that Adam was never tempted before the influence of Satan by way of Eve, and that Satan is key in tempting man, from Job to Jesus. And that Satan is bound in the Abyss so he can deceive the nations no more. Then later Satan is gone for good in the Lake of Fire, and after...



        So at this point, is there any more temptation to sin, where sin causes death, sorrow, crying, pain? Doesn't seem so. Where did the temptation to sin go? Seems to me it went into the Lake of Fire. Right now Satan and thus some temptations can be removed by God. In the end I see them being removed for good. So my question is, at the point of Revelation 21 cited, are humans still sinning or being tempted to sin? If not, what happens to that temptation?
        Contradicts what you said previously. So you concede that we would still sin today if theoretically the devil were destroyed. And yes people still sin then.... Those in hell will persist in their hatred of God. No devil required.

        And again the devil is not omnipresent.
        The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
          The logic seems sound to me for this being Pelagian. Taken to a logical extreme, this could also mean that people could blame the devil for their sin and not take any personal responsibility. And of course people can make that argument all they want, but they would be wrong.
          Yeah that blame shifting thing worked out well for Adam. Oh wait.
          The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
            Contradicts what you said previously. So you concede that we would still sin today if theoretically the devil were destroyed.
            No, I hold that temptation comes from the devil. Why bind the devil in the Abyss at all if he doesn't influence sin? Why are nations suddenly deceived when he is let out, if they could have been deceived all along while he was bound?

            Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
            And yes people still sin then....
            Doesn't sin cause death, sorrow, crying, pain? Those things are said to be gone in Revelation 21, coincidentally after the devil is in the Lake of Fire. Will people feel happiness not sorrow when they sin in the New Jerusalem?

            Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
            Those in hell will persist in their hatred of God. No devil required.
            I'm Annihilationist so...

            Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
            And again the devil is not omnipresent.
            He does have angels apparently to do his bidding including temptation, who follow him to the Lake of Fire (Matthew 25:41), and I also believe, into prior binding in the Abyss (some demons were afraid of going there when Jesus sent them into the swine). Some comments about that:

            Theory one, recognizing that all angels have powers beyond ours to move around and see into people, posits that Satan has the power of "multipresence"—not "omnipresence," but not as spacially limited as humans.

            Theory two, surely the more natural, is that the New Testament writers do what we do when speaking of wars—that is, ascribe all the hostile action to the opposing leader. "Hitler (or Napoleon or Saddam) attacked," we say, when in fact subordinates acted at their leader's command. Most Christians, like C. S. Lewis in The Screwtape Letters, hold some form of this view, and have always done so. -Is Satan Omnipresent? If not, how does he tempt many people at one time?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
              No, I hold that temptation comes from the devil. Why bind the devil in the Abyss at all if he doesn't influence sin? Why are nations suddenly deceived when he is let out, if they could have been deceived all along while he was bound?
              Back to flirting with pelagianism. I am not going to regurgitate everything I have done on the subject… really no interest.

              Doesn't sin cause death, sorrow, crying, pain?
              Eventually… and that verse is referring to the saved.


              Those things are said to be gone in Revelation 21, coincidentally after the devil is in the Lake of Fire. Will people feel happiness not sorrow when they sin in the New Jerusalem?
              Straw. First, lake of fire is not the same as binding… which proves against your point. Second, I never said people sin in heaven, so with that statement… I am done.

              Funny this. I run the forum for myself only for fellowship, I don't debate much anymore--- leave that to everyone else. It just irritates me and I get ugly.
              The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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              • #37
                I am sure I will get plenty of podcast fodder…

                And, I do not like simply shooting off a post that take me two minutes to compose, and I don't have time for anything substantive. If I am going to sit down and write something very substantive, it will be an article or an episode, my job doesn't allow me the free time I used to have.
                The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                  Back to flirting with pelagianism.
                  Once again I believe we need God's help to avoid temptation and fight Satan, which doesn't square with pelagianism.

                  Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                  I am not going to regurgitate everything I have done on the subject… really no interest.
                  Do you have a specific article in mind dealing with these questions, I'll google around too.

                  Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                  Eventually… and that verse is referring to the saved.
                  Below...

                  Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                  Straw. First, lake of fire is not the same as binding… which proves against your point.
                  That nations are not deceived when Satan is in the Abyss, and that people are not deceived in Heaven when Satan is in the Lake of Fire, implies that Satan's ability to deceive is restricted by both.

                  The question still remains, what is the point of binding Satan to keep him from deceiving if people are deceived anyway?

                  Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                  Second, I never said people sin in heaven, so with that statement… I am done.
                  I asked if people still sin at the point of Revelation 21:3-4 which refers to people in Heaven, so when you replied "And yes people still sin then...." I expected that you were replying to that, so apparently we misunderstood each other.

                  The other question still remains, what is it that causes people not to sin in Heaven, if not for removal of Satan/demon presence from them into the Lake of Fire?

                  Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                  Funny this. I run the forum for myself only for fellowship, I don't debate much anymore--- leave that to everyone else. It just irritates me and I get ugly.
                  I try more and more not to look at it so much as a contest where I have to be right or wrong, and even emphasis middle ground if any is to be had, though I agree it's still hard to do sometimes. Maybe others who agree with you can answer these questions, or I can find them in one of your articles.

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                  • #39
                    I tend to be too competitive
                    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                    • #40
                      The way I see it, a non-literal interpretation can say that Satan's binding was not necessarily and ACTUAL binding, but a poetic/apocalyptic way of saying that he has been (forcibly) removed from the central throne of the world. After all, Jesus is the king, the kingdom is here, Jesus is ruling the world. This does not have to mean that Satan has been completely removed and inactive or MIA. He can still have a significant amount of influence in today's world, yet his power evidently has not been enough to prohibit the spread of the gospel, so it most certainly can be said that he is "no longer deceiving the nations."

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren View Post
                        Good thing I don't believe the devil is literally locked up.
                        Ah, the hermeneutics of allegory and/or metaphor in play.
                        And of course demons are in play unless you are conceited enough to think you warrant the devil's personal attention. He isn't omnipresent.
                        Good thing too. I do not need any help making mistakes.
                        Last edited by 37818; 01-25-2014, 07:37 PM.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by iTeluog View Post
                          The way I see it, a non-literal interpretation can say that Satan's binding was not necessarily and ACTUAL binding, but a poetic/apocalyptic way of saying that he has been (forcibly) removed from the central throne of the world. After all, Jesus is the king, the kingdom is here, Jesus is ruling the world. This does not have to mean that Satan has been completely removed and inactive or MIA. He can still have a significant amount of influence in today's world, yet his power evidently has not been enough to prohibit the spread of the gospel, so it most certainly can be said that he is "no longer deceiving the nations."
                          Since I view Rome turned Christian Rome as a continuation of the Roman portion of the Beast -- Roman entities as Iron, and Greek entities of Macedonian, Prolemaic, and Seleucid as brass Daniel 2:39-40, 4:15-16, 7:19 -- specifically Roman Crusaders being one identifiable Roman entity the Harlot Jerusalem sat on during its occupation -- I look at it more like, Satan is not bound yet, but Christianity is a divide and conquer influence with that process still taking place -- Matthew 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

                          That said, it seems the precedent of opening the Bottomless Pit with a key and letting evil influences out with power in Revelation 9 may imply that what is in the Bottomless Pit has no power at all. Whereas, with rising secular influences, issues with Muslims, Christian leaders falling to corruption, decline of Christianity in places like the UK, threat of global destruction with WMDs, ad nauseam...seems to me Satan is gaining the upper hand in many aspects of humanity, though it has been and up and down process of divide and conquer. I still see us in the stage of separating sheep from goats, with Satan as always deceiving the goats, I guess you could say.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                            I still see us in the stage of separating sheep from goats, with Satan as always deceiving the goats, I guess you could say.
                            I think Glenn Peoples had a view along this line, where Satan is bound yet still has the ability to deceive the non-elect. He can correct me if I'm inaccurate regarding this.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by iTeluog View Post
                              The way I see it, a non-literal interpretation can say that Satan's binding was not necessarily and ACTUAL binding, but a poetic/apocalyptic way of saying that he has been (forcibly) removed from the central throne of the world. After all, Jesus is the king, the kingdom is here, Jesus is ruling the world. This does not have to mean that Satan has been completely removed and inactive or MIA. He can still have a significant amount of influence in today's world, yet his power evidently has not been enough to prohibit the spread of the gospel, so it most certainly can be said that he is "no longer deceiving the nations."
                              I find this a little hard to square with the reality, especially as the last two millennia of human history have been far from reflecting the kingdom ethics Jesus emphasized throughout his preaching.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by iTeluog View Post
                                I think Glenn Peoples had a view along this line, where Satan is bound yet still has the ability to deceive the non-elect. He can correct me if I'm inaccurate regarding this.
                                I try not to be ultra-wooden/literal. But here I would question, did the elect only exist after Satan was bound? Or are people like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob also among the elect? Matthew 8:11 sure seems to indicate that. If so there would seem to be no special purpose of binding Satan for that reason if the elect could never be deceived such that it ruined their salvation, unless we place binding at a time before Abraham.

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